colin_koehler
Great SCOTT!
Then I'm glad he's not in charge.
Gentlemen, start your excuses!
- Thread starter robjacobsen
- Start date
Then I'm glad he's not in charge.
Randy Blaylock
Highlander Motorsports
It's now an "us" vs. "them" thing. Nice.
For the record I will defer to the decision of the stewards, and take the veteran turn worker's assessment of the incident as predominate as he had a prime view, and an unbiased perspective. Whatever team that lands me on, fine.
The penalty has been issued, I trust that the Steward's judgement will be accepted by moving on from this topic now.
If however, one feels the need to continue to call for penalties with the tone of an ultimatum, using pejoratives as personal attacks in a public forum which in my opinion is as offensive as the asserted action, or the coarseness to question the judgement of a volunteer turn worker that has more experience observing drivers than many of us have time on this earth, not to mention obviously no dog in the fight, then I suggest you get off your podium and pick up a set of flags or a pen, and see how well you do.
For the record I will defer to the decision of the stewards, and take the veteran turn worker's assessment of the incident as predominate as he had a prime view, and an unbiased perspective. Whatever team that lands me on, fine.
The penalty has been issued, I trust that the Steward's judgement will be accepted by moving on from this topic now.
If however, one feels the need to continue to call for penalties with the tone of an ultimatum, using pejoratives as personal attacks in a public forum which in my opinion is as offensive as the asserted action, or the coarseness to question the judgement of a volunteer turn worker that has more experience observing drivers than many of us have time on this earth, not to mention obviously no dog in the fight, then I suggest you get off your podium and pick up a set of flags or a pen, and see how well you do.
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Karen Stimson
Well-known member
Mark de Regt,
Your view is understandable. You've seen my earlier posts, so you know I'm not condoning bad/dangerous driving. And I'd be peeved too if I'd been in your shoes.
From my viewpoint, the question isn't whether or not something wrong happened. (How we got stuck beating on just one incident, I'm not sure...) It's a very valid point that after one incident an experienced driver should be backing off and mentally getting his **** together.
The problem that maybe some of us are having is figuring out what was really going on during the Rx7/Miata accident. I personally am shocked to see those actions from the #70 driver. Some of us know the driver in question and know that he is normally a very experienced, good, calm, capable driver. He's a calm, helpful person in the pits. He doesn't have an anger management problem. So the question is: what was going on to precipitate 2 incidents in a row? I imagine that the stewards talked at length with him and hopefully everyone else who had a perspective about the issue. I'm trusting that Tom and Michael will handle all these incidents with level heads, courage and grace.
Your view is understandable. You've seen my earlier posts, so you know I'm not condoning bad/dangerous driving. And I'd be peeved too if I'd been in your shoes.
From my viewpoint, the question isn't whether or not something wrong happened. (How we got stuck beating on just one incident, I'm not sure...) It's a very valid point that after one incident an experienced driver should be backing off and mentally getting his **** together.
The problem that maybe some of us are having is figuring out what was really going on during the Rx7/Miata accident. I personally am shocked to see those actions from the #70 driver. Some of us know the driver in question and know that he is normally a very experienced, good, calm, capable driver. He's a calm, helpful person in the pits. He doesn't have an anger management problem. So the question is: what was going on to precipitate 2 incidents in a row? I imagine that the stewards talked at length with him and hopefully everyone else who had a perspective about the issue. I'm trusting that Tom and Michael will handle all these incidents with level heads, courage and grace.
kyle_nickels
"The Okie"
I think he has paid his dues. Unfortunately some other folks have had to pay also. I think #70 (why not name him?? kinda like dancing around a can of gas with your britches on fire) is a good, fair driver who does drive aggressively but with skill. Yes he has passed me a little close, a couple times where I had to back off. (I get passed a lot in Tweety). But he aint the only one who's done that! I say let it go. See what happens the rest of the year. I am sure he will prove his metal.
And I am so totally glad that you are ok Mike. Also glad you will make ORP. You are a class act guy.
And I am so totally glad that you are ok Mike. Also glad you will make ORP. You are a class act guy.
epsdan
Well-known member
I'm with Randy. We see one perspective on a video. There can be other mitigating circumstances that are not visible on this particular video. Like in life, those whose job it is to adjudicate, do so with the most complete evidence available to them at the time. I trust Tom and Michael to make the correct decision in an informed and dispassionate environment. That's what they have VOLUNTEERED to do, for all of our benefits.
While we all have a "right" to comment at length on an incident, when it gets negative and repetitious, it really doesn't do anything to improve the situation. If you are aggrieved in an on track incident, go to the stewards, lay down your $100, and let the process work. It's a good process - not perfect, but good.
I'm done with this thread now. I don't see anything more productive coming out of it at this point. See you all at ORP, hopefully with smiles on, and ready to race - hard, but clean.
Dan
Bill Bonsell
Well-known member
One of the first things I was told upon getting into racing was to not screw up the first corner for myself or anyone else. I totally reject the premise some postured that Phil #14 was in a blind spot. Looked like Phil was to the drivers door at least. Hell he should of heard a Miata! One would think an experienced racer in a crowded field at the first corner, in traffic, would have held "his lane" and assumed someone was inside. Same thing applies to the incident into 3 with Mike. He also lightly bumped into me at the bottom of 3B after the restart. Not badly, but it was a first for me. I am sure nothing was intentional, but why is it so hard for some here to admit the guy exercised extremely poor judgment! Regardless of how it happens, avoidable contact issues should be dealt with harshly!! And anyone who actually thinks this is just "racin" needs to be racing elsewhere IMO.....
Steve Adams
Just this guy, ya know?
Everyone has a bad day once in a while. Everyone who races has a bad race once in a while. Hopefully, they don't cause any damage; if they do, hopefully it's only to their own car. In the case of the "deadly" #70, that was clearly not the case. While I, as a Conference member, have been pretty disappointed by the apparent leniency passed on to certain "troublesome" drivers in the past, and while I, as a car owner, would be effing LIVID if some jackass ran out of talent and hit my car, we should all of us remember that nobody is perfect, and nobody was injured.
Personally, I would like there to be A) more transparency in the penalty process (e.g., "We, the stewards, have levied Penalty X on Driver Y, and here's our reasoning.") and B) fewer third and fourth chances given to repeat offenders (Anyone remember a certain Viper driver from a few years ago? Why did it take so long to give him the boot?), but the time has probably come to end the part of this discussion that's going after one particular driver pretty severely, especially as Steve is not a frequenter of this forum and isn't being afforded much opportunity to defend or even explain himself. For that matter, certain drivers in Group 1 that engaged in some pretty aggressive driving aren't here to comment, either.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions about their fellow drivers; I know I have many of my own, but we would perhaps be better served by discussing our collective responsibilities to our fellow drivers and the folks manning the flag stations than going after anyone in particular this early in the season. I'm not suggesting that any of the aggrieved drivers give the "offending party" a pass, but simply saying that one race does not a career make.
Personally, I would like there to be A) more transparency in the penalty process (e.g., "We, the stewards, have levied Penalty X on Driver Y, and here's our reasoning.") and B) fewer third and fourth chances given to repeat offenders (Anyone remember a certain Viper driver from a few years ago? Why did it take so long to give him the boot?), but the time has probably come to end the part of this discussion that's going after one particular driver pretty severely, especially as Steve is not a frequenter of this forum and isn't being afforded much opportunity to defend or even explain himself. For that matter, certain drivers in Group 1 that engaged in some pretty aggressive driving aren't here to comment, either.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions about their fellow drivers; I know I have many of my own, but we would perhaps be better served by discussing our collective responsibilities to our fellow drivers and the folks manning the flag stations than going after anyone in particular this early in the season. I'm not suggesting that any of the aggrieved drivers give the "offending party" a pass, but simply saying that one race does not a career make.
rick_bostrom
Onda Kattan Racing
Wow - is this all it takes to shake everyones basic faith in Conference and, worse yet, their fellow man?
Mr. de Regt - I understand your frustration and concern. We've all been in a situation where we feel wronged and no matter who's fault it was you get to bear the brunt of fixing your mangled racecar. Maybe it even put a little fear in you and now that fun you have been having in a racecar is tinged with the thought that it involves real danger. I get it, and am sorry you had to go through it. On the other hand, I've always found that it is best to give myself a chance to cool off a bit before advocating a lynching and clearly you haven't taken enough time! If you are not currently privy to all that is happening as a result of not just YOUR incident, but ALL of the incidents then thrashing the other driver, the stewards, entire race groups, and top level professional racing series on a very public forum ends up hurting your reputation and making you look a little foolish.
A few points that I feel strongly about -
1) Conference has a long history of recruiting and training exceptional race stewards. Tom is no exception and he has the additional resource of being able to consult about a half dozen former exceptional race stewards on how to best serve the membership while maintaining some level of continuity within our rule structure. I'm not blaming OR excusing the drivers involved in Sunday's incidents - I'm trusting that the Steward will review ALL of the available evidence (which is way more than we will get to review) and make a fair and proper ruling primarily intended to protect the safety of all participants: racers, workers, and spectators. Since I was one of the last 4 or 5 people at the track cleaning up and putting away equipment, I had several opportunities to talk with Tom before we left. If you think for a moment that he wasn't deeply concerned with appropriate penalties for those who need them and making plans to prevent any repeat of those kinds of incidents under his supervision then you just don't get it.
2) The workers at our events are more valuable than gold. These are the people who love Conference racing and the drivers who participate so much that they come out and give their week-ends to be right in the thick of the action protecting OUR necks. They are there because they want to be and they are no less passionate about the sport than any driver. The thought of a car going through a turn station and harming one of these people is nothing less than horrifying to me. Everyone who has ever raced has missed a signal from a turn station at some point in their career becasue they were behind another car, or saving a big slide, or taking evasive action, or not just as attentive as they should be. I would just remind everyone - if you are confused by flags that you think could be out at the wrong time or other contradictory information, always err on the side of safety. Slow it down a bit and widen your field of vision and look for trouble. Is going from 15th to 14th worth bouncing into the site of an incident all crossed up and putting a stranded competitor and/or the workers responding to the problem in danger? If you even considered answering yes it's time to re-evaluate you priorities in amateur racing.
3) The driver who is getting the majority of the beating here is a guy who takes his racing very seriously. He prepares his car immaculately. He takes great pride in his driving. He racer EVERYBODY pretty hard, perhaps harder than he needs to some times but he was always pretty clean when I raced him, which has been a couple years ago now. I'm not saying that he didn't have a bad day or make some ill advised moves, or that he shouldn't or won't get punished. What I'm saying is that I don't know of a single other incident that he has had in quite a few years of racing. He deserves to have the incident looked at in detail by the people that we task to do exactly that and trust them to handle it fairly. I want cool and wise heads to handle this the right way, not a howling mob with torches and pitchforks dispensing mob justice. Be careful who you are willing to ban for life. Do you want it to be you when your bags of luck and talent run out at the same time?
4) Trotting out the threat that if the driver in question isn't permanently banned a bunch of drivers won't feel safe enough to race anymore is just needless drama. I reiterate my last point - this driver had never shown ANY real propensity toward causing this kind of incident before. What that means is the track will NEVER really be safe enough for those people because the danger can come from ANYONE, even those who are considered to be safe and reliable for their whole career right up to the point of "BOOM": incident. Nothing in the stewards records would have allowed them to predict that this driver would cause this kind of trouble so ANY driver that you are next to could have the same problem.
5) Clearly the people comparing OW and CW cars and reaching the conclusion that OW cars just don't have incidents aren't getting the hell out of their paddock spot and getting up in the stands to watch some OW racing. I guess I could do a half assed statistical rendering but my bet is once you compare incidents per car-mile you will find that OW are probably not so different from CW. I sure see a lot of OW cars coming back with a corner torn off, a bent up nose, or on the end of a hook just like CW cars. It isn't an us vs. them scenario. Far as I'm concerned there is only US.
6) So let me see if I've got this straight - too many incidents are caused in amateur roadracing because of people learning acceptance for wrecking from watching NASCAR? Wow. I'm willing to have an adult conversation about most points of view, but that has to be one of the least intelligent things that I have ever heard. If you subscribe to that idea, I've got something that makes even more sense. Perhaps NASCAR guys have developed an acceptance of wrecks from watching Spec Miata. Again, bet the incident rate per car-mile is significantly higher in Spec Miata than Nascar. I do so love it when the pot impunes the color of the kettle.
So, to sum up so nobody gets the wrong idea - I trust the stewards to handle the problem. I'm am not defending the guilt or innocence of anyone involved, I'm letting those that have all of the evidence make that assessment. I am very much pro-worker, pro-situational awareness, pro-racer, and pro-safety. I am against name calling, driving wedges between racers, and mob justice. If I had to guess, the things that are being said about that particular driver on this forum are probably already worse than any other punshment that could be handed down.
I would like to thanks each and every one of you who supported our IRDC event. I feel for those with damaged cars but am glad that in the end everyone was safe and walked away from their respective incidents.
Good Luck and hope to see all of you at the track soon!
Mr. de Regt - I understand your frustration and concern. We've all been in a situation where we feel wronged and no matter who's fault it was you get to bear the brunt of fixing your mangled racecar. Maybe it even put a little fear in you and now that fun you have been having in a racecar is tinged with the thought that it involves real danger. I get it, and am sorry you had to go through it. On the other hand, I've always found that it is best to give myself a chance to cool off a bit before advocating a lynching and clearly you haven't taken enough time! If you are not currently privy to all that is happening as a result of not just YOUR incident, but ALL of the incidents then thrashing the other driver, the stewards, entire race groups, and top level professional racing series on a very public forum ends up hurting your reputation and making you look a little foolish.
A few points that I feel strongly about -
1) Conference has a long history of recruiting and training exceptional race stewards. Tom is no exception and he has the additional resource of being able to consult about a half dozen former exceptional race stewards on how to best serve the membership while maintaining some level of continuity within our rule structure. I'm not blaming OR excusing the drivers involved in Sunday's incidents - I'm trusting that the Steward will review ALL of the available evidence (which is way more than we will get to review) and make a fair and proper ruling primarily intended to protect the safety of all participants: racers, workers, and spectators. Since I was one of the last 4 or 5 people at the track cleaning up and putting away equipment, I had several opportunities to talk with Tom before we left. If you think for a moment that he wasn't deeply concerned with appropriate penalties for those who need them and making plans to prevent any repeat of those kinds of incidents under his supervision then you just don't get it.
2) The workers at our events are more valuable than gold. These are the people who love Conference racing and the drivers who participate so much that they come out and give their week-ends to be right in the thick of the action protecting OUR necks. They are there because they want to be and they are no less passionate about the sport than any driver. The thought of a car going through a turn station and harming one of these people is nothing less than horrifying to me. Everyone who has ever raced has missed a signal from a turn station at some point in their career becasue they were behind another car, or saving a big slide, or taking evasive action, or not just as attentive as they should be. I would just remind everyone - if you are confused by flags that you think could be out at the wrong time or other contradictory information, always err on the side of safety. Slow it down a bit and widen your field of vision and look for trouble. Is going from 15th to 14th worth bouncing into the site of an incident all crossed up and putting a stranded competitor and/or the workers responding to the problem in danger? If you even considered answering yes it's time to re-evaluate you priorities in amateur racing.
3) The driver who is getting the majority of the beating here is a guy who takes his racing very seriously. He prepares his car immaculately. He takes great pride in his driving. He racer EVERYBODY pretty hard, perhaps harder than he needs to some times but he was always pretty clean when I raced him, which has been a couple years ago now. I'm not saying that he didn't have a bad day or make some ill advised moves, or that he shouldn't or won't get punished. What I'm saying is that I don't know of a single other incident that he has had in quite a few years of racing. He deserves to have the incident looked at in detail by the people that we task to do exactly that and trust them to handle it fairly. I want cool and wise heads to handle this the right way, not a howling mob with torches and pitchforks dispensing mob justice. Be careful who you are willing to ban for life. Do you want it to be you when your bags of luck and talent run out at the same time?
4) Trotting out the threat that if the driver in question isn't permanently banned a bunch of drivers won't feel safe enough to race anymore is just needless drama. I reiterate my last point - this driver had never shown ANY real propensity toward causing this kind of incident before. What that means is the track will NEVER really be safe enough for those people because the danger can come from ANYONE, even those who are considered to be safe and reliable for their whole career right up to the point of "BOOM": incident. Nothing in the stewards records would have allowed them to predict that this driver would cause this kind of trouble so ANY driver that you are next to could have the same problem.
5) Clearly the people comparing OW and CW cars and reaching the conclusion that OW cars just don't have incidents aren't getting the hell out of their paddock spot and getting up in the stands to watch some OW racing. I guess I could do a half assed statistical rendering but my bet is once you compare incidents per car-mile you will find that OW are probably not so different from CW. I sure see a lot of OW cars coming back with a corner torn off, a bent up nose, or on the end of a hook just like CW cars. It isn't an us vs. them scenario. Far as I'm concerned there is only US.
6) So let me see if I've got this straight - too many incidents are caused in amateur roadracing because of people learning acceptance for wrecking from watching NASCAR? Wow. I'm willing to have an adult conversation about most points of view, but that has to be one of the least intelligent things that I have ever heard. If you subscribe to that idea, I've got something that makes even more sense. Perhaps NASCAR guys have developed an acceptance of wrecks from watching Spec Miata. Again, bet the incident rate per car-mile is significantly higher in Spec Miata than Nascar. I do so love it when the pot impunes the color of the kettle.
So, to sum up so nobody gets the wrong idea - I trust the stewards to handle the problem. I'm am not defending the guilt or innocence of anyone involved, I'm letting those that have all of the evidence make that assessment. I am very much pro-worker, pro-situational awareness, pro-racer, and pro-safety. I am against name calling, driving wedges between racers, and mob justice. If I had to guess, the things that are being said about that particular driver on this forum are probably already worse than any other punshment that could be handed down.
I would like to thanks each and every one of you who supported our IRDC event. I feel for those with damaged cars but am glad that in the end everyone was safe and walked away from their respective incidents.
Good Luck and hope to see all of you at the track soon!
kyle_nickels
"The Okie"
Glad Paul Tracy wasn't driving that weekend.
I guess the smiley wasn't enough to convey the humor intended
Or the desperate attempt to recruit drivers to groups 3/6, whichever way you want to look at it! Still, I do believe we tend to be more aware of the consequences, at least compared to some closed wheel classes. Ok, maybe just Spec Miata And Spec Wrecker Ford, but we don't have those around here. Doesn't mean we don't crash, but we know there are very rarely harmless little taps and nudges in an open wheel car. I agree with everything you said though. This thread may have been started a bit too soon.. I really don't think any of the isolated incidents with "#70" would have been a big deal, it's the fact that they all happened in quick succession that is slightly worrying. I know if I had just tapped someone on the first corner of a race, I wouldn't be so quick to try and squeeze by another car, but then again I'm not THAT competitive in nature. I am more than willing to give someone the benefit of doubt though, and considering that he has raced fairly for a long time before this, I'd tell him to take it down a notch and get on with the racing.
Ken Killam
Fats
How many have noticed whether their hands (wheel) turns as they move their head (chin, eyes) left or right? It may almost be an involuntary/natural eye-hand movement, but have you ever caught yourself... maybe just in time?
Just wonderin'. 'Cuz, I'm pretty sure that I've seen it before, and I know that I've caught myself. I'm probably not as safe when I do that.
Just wonderin'. 'Cuz, I'm pretty sure that I've seen it before, and I know that I've caught myself. I'm probably not as safe when I do that.
Mark de Regt
Well-known member
I'll sign off of this thread with a few observations:
1. I've had lots of chance to cool down. Every time I see that video of #70, or the video of me being punted while leading my class late in the race by a guy who did exactly the same thing in the Portland race to another racer, I lose some of that cool. That will never change.
2. Just because a guy is a "nice guy," and has never before been caught bashing two cars in one half lap (and, but for the grace of God, many more, with potential serous injury) has no bearing on whether or not he's a menace out there. We've now read that he scraped another car in the restart. I absolutely don't want to share the track with someone who drives so very aggressively, especially with such demonstrated absence of any skill; no amount of "fun" is worth that risk, IMO. This is amateur racing, with money only going one way, and nobody, IMO, has the right to drive that way. YMMV, apparently. You can have these dangerous drivers; I'll decline.
3. Being lenient with drivers who repeatedly initiate avoidable contact enables such behavior. With the attitudes I have read on this thread, I'm not surprised that the mayhem seems to be increasing.
Enjoy your bumper cars; unless I can feel as safe as I felt a couple of years ago out there, I won't be playing any more.
Mark
1. I've had lots of chance to cool down. Every time I see that video of #70, or the video of me being punted while leading my class late in the race by a guy who did exactly the same thing in the Portland race to another racer, I lose some of that cool. That will never change.
2. Just because a guy is a "nice guy," and has never before been caught bashing two cars in one half lap (and, but for the grace of God, many more, with potential serous injury) has no bearing on whether or not he's a menace out there. We've now read that he scraped another car in the restart. I absolutely don't want to share the track with someone who drives so very aggressively, especially with such demonstrated absence of any skill; no amount of "fun" is worth that risk, IMO. This is amateur racing, with money only going one way, and nobody, IMO, has the right to drive that way. YMMV, apparently. You can have these dangerous drivers; I'll decline.
3. Being lenient with drivers who repeatedly initiate avoidable contact enables such behavior. With the attitudes I have read on this thread, I'm not surprised that the mayhem seems to be increasing.
Enjoy your bumper cars; unless I can feel as safe as I felt a couple of years ago out there, I won't be playing any more.
Mark
As a soon to be novice, I hope the senior drivers will come to me directly if I make a mistake and I hope this continues to happen even when I'm no longer a "novice". Has anyone does this with #70? Some of those videos reminded me of 80 and 90s BTCC action.
Lost in all of this was some really good racing. Sorry I missed the weekend
Lost in all of this was some really good racing. Sorry I missed the weekend
I had the video from right behind the entire wreakage in G2. First off, I totally reacted in my car all alone to what I was seeing. It looked to me like # 70 just simply doesn't
check mirrors quite enough. I don't know the majority of the racers in Conference as this is my first year racing and only my second time at pacific so I had no Idea if # 70 races like that all the time or is just having a "bad day". I do have to say that I hear ALOT of racers saying things like, " well If the guy in front of me won't move, Ill give him a little tap to spin him" WTF Is my reaction to that ?? I think we all have to remember we aren't racing for big money or big sponsors and we all have to pay for our own car repairs. The thing I love about racing is trying really hard to make skillful moves to try and get ahead of the cars in front of me or stay right behind and wait for the other driver to miss a shift or screw up a corner before I do. I thought it was all about strategic moves not aggression at all,but Im a girl and don't have the testosterone levels you boys have so maybe its different for me. Yes the adrenaline is pumping, potty mouth gets going and I want to be a top finisher just as much as everyone else, but I'll get there when I feel I can handle the car safely. Don't get me wrong, I have had plenty of small contact mishaps with some guys. I do realize that happens but I think when a weekend like this past one we ALL need to think a little harder about why we're all doing this crazy sport.
As far as the driver of # 70, I do appologize for calling your terrible names, I don't know you and had no right to say those things about you, but you scared the **** outta me!!
I have seen on this forum that you are known as a good racer but your conduct didn't make any sense to me.One of the things that goes through my head in a race is, there are no blind spots on the track. your mirrors should be set up to give you full view of anything close to your car. I wear ear plugs for radio contact, but I will only wear one so I can hear the sound of someone else's car close to me. I kind of use my ears as back up in case I didn't have a chance to check my mirror in a heated situation.
anyhow, lets take everthing that happened this weekend as a huge lesson and be thankful no one was seriously hurt . Lets all settle down out there, and be safe !
check mirrors quite enough. I don't know the majority of the racers in Conference as this is my first year racing and only my second time at pacific so I had no Idea if # 70 races like that all the time or is just having a "bad day". I do have to say that I hear ALOT of racers saying things like, " well If the guy in front of me won't move, Ill give him a little tap to spin him" WTF Is my reaction to that ?? I think we all have to remember we aren't racing for big money or big sponsors and we all have to pay for our own car repairs. The thing I love about racing is trying really hard to make skillful moves to try and get ahead of the cars in front of me or stay right behind and wait for the other driver to miss a shift or screw up a corner before I do. I thought it was all about strategic moves not aggression at all,but Im a girl and don't have the testosterone levels you boys have so maybe its different for me. Yes the adrenaline is pumping, potty mouth gets going and I want to be a top finisher just as much as everyone else, but I'll get there when I feel I can handle the car safely. Don't get me wrong, I have had plenty of small contact mishaps with some guys. I do realize that happens but I think when a weekend like this past one we ALL need to think a little harder about why we're all doing this crazy sport.
As far as the driver of # 70, I do appologize for calling your terrible names, I don't know you and had no right to say those things about you, but you scared the **** outta me!!
I have seen on this forum that you are known as a good racer but your conduct didn't make any sense to me.One of the things that goes through my head in a race is, there are no blind spots on the track. your mirrors should be set up to give you full view of anything close to your car. I wear ear plugs for radio contact, but I will only wear one so I can hear the sound of someone else's car close to me. I kind of use my ears as back up in case I didn't have a chance to check my mirror in a heated situation.
anyhow, lets take everthing that happened this weekend as a huge lesson and be thankful no one was seriously hurt . Lets all settle down out there, and be safe !
rick_bostrom
Onda Kattan Racing
So if you don't get exactly what you want unilateraly and immediately you are going to take your ball and go home? I'm sorry you feel that way, we hate to lose anyone. Everyone has to weigh their own tolerance for risk and make decisions about their own safety. I hope you are making the decision for all the right reasons and I wish you success and happiness at whatever you decide to apply your time to. If your decision is, on the other hand, an ultimatim testing whether the group as a whole will take it on themselves to punish the person that did you wrong instead of losing you then it is not only completely wrong but also puts your judgement in question.
For the most part, nobody is taking sides. We are waiting, openmindedly, to see what the OFFICIALS will ultimately do to makes sure both accused and offended are treated fairly and that they race safely in the future. That is something you should join us in - not leave in a tantrum.
Respectfully.
For the most part, nobody is taking sides. We are waiting, openmindedly, to see what the OFFICIALS will ultimately do to makes sure both accused and offended are treated fairly and that they race safely in the future. That is something you should join us in - not leave in a tantrum.
Respectfully.
Mark de Regt
Well-known member
Since this obviously was aimed at me, and essentially asks for a response, I'll respond (although I really have nothing specific to add to what I have already said).
No tantrum. This has been brewing in my mind for some time, as I have observed a steadily increasing level of mayhem in racing, Conference and SCCA. It would be interesting to see the statistics on the percentage of races in Groups 1, 2 and 5 that don't have a yellow. Or double-yellow. Or black. It has reached the state that I'm pleasantly surprised when my race has no double-yellow, and I'm shocked if there's no yellow. That's just wrong.
I have limited resources of time, energy and money to put to my "fun" activities. When one ceases to be enough "fun" to justify the time, energy and money that go into it, I re-examine that activity's place in my life.
I don't like crashes. I don't like people who take a recreation so seriously that they're willing to risk the life and property of others to improve a place or two in a race that, in the scheme of things, means nothing. I have, of course, always understood the unavoidable risks involved in racing, especially at a track like Pacific Raceways with such poor runoff almost everywhere, but I have observed in dismay as the avoidable risks have increased.
It's not an ultimatum so much as a public statement. I don't like mayhem, and don't want to play in a place where mayhem isn't dealt with in a severe way. If I'm in a small minority, you won't miss me. But for every "me" who speaks out, I suspect that there are a lot who will just vote with their feet. Keep coddling the malefactors, and there may be economic consequences to the enterprise.
I am awaiting the officials' decisions, regarding #70's awful driving, the repeat felon who punted me, and the horrible stuff that went on in group 1. Then I will decide if I think things are headed toward "safer" or "less safe," and make my decision about continuing racing, or not.
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codingparadox
Member
Not at all.
Similar to the soccer league that I just stopped playing in this past season after 6 or so years of straight playing, things have been changing. People are getting significantly more aggressive, and the referees/officials are being more lenient with it. I don't know if it's a bad economy leading to desperately not wanting to lose players/drivers. On our soccer team, we just quit playing because we couldn't field enough people for the team this season because so many people had gotten injured by boneheaded moves that sent them to the ER, the majority of which went entirely unpenalized by the management.
The same exact thing has been happening in ICSCC (and NWR racing, for that matter) for the past couple years. Hence, when some real life stuff came up at the end of last season, and it became time to make a decision about suspending my racing for a bit, it had gotten really easy. I'm sitting it out waiting to see if the volunteer organizations around here start realizing it's more important to keep people safe and encourage the long-term happiness of racing than to retain short-term car numbers, just like I'm sitting out soccer waiting to see if my friends that are still playing there express feelings that the management has removed the rectal-cranial impaction on that side of things.
When there is, effectively, no penalty for doing boneheaded dangerous moves, why would you not do them? Shockingly, this is what has occurred, and while it should anger me that people are defending them, it simply reinforces that I shouldn't be racing with this group, if not only are the incidents continuing to occur, but that numerous other people are defending the actions as legitimate.
It's amateur racing. For the love of god, figure that out, jesus christ.
Steve Adams
Just this guy, ya know?
This is totally the right attitude, IMO. Just sayin'.
Ken Killam
Fats
Bottom line... "I don't like people who take a recreation so seriously that they're willing to risk the life and property of others to improve a place or two in a race that, in the scheme of things, means nothing. I have, of course, always understood the unavoidable risks involved in racing, especially at a track like Pacific Raceways with such poor runoff almost everywhere, but I have observed in dismay as the avoidable risks have increased." -Mark de Regt
Thank you, Mark. That is essentially the perspective that I have attempted to impress this upon those that would provide more opportunities than necessary for myself, or our Safety Team(s) to respond. Those actions that otherwise might be avoided with some forethought, and extra consideration before they even leave the confines of Pre-Grid.
Especially when it gets dark outside.
Points? Purse? Pride? Priorities?
Thank you, Mark. That is essentially the perspective that I have attempted to impress this upon those that would provide more opportunities than necessary for myself, or our Safety Team(s) to respond. Those actions that otherwise might be avoided with some forethought, and extra consideration before they even leave the confines of Pre-Grid.
Especially when it gets dark outside.
Points? Purse? Pride? Priorities?
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