Gentlemen, start your excuses!

Mark de Regt said:
I agree completely with this. If you're engaged in very close racing, with cars all around you, it's very easy to miss a standing yellow (especially at turn 6 or 8). A waving flag is always a good idea when there's a real need to slow down and get full control, for the simple reason that it's far more likely to be seen by all.
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I don't agree.

I'm with Lynn on this. The waving yellow is something VERY specific - the incident is within the jurisdiction of the corner waving the yellow. It should remain as it is, and not be used to "generally" get a drivers attention.

Think of what was proposed (waving yellows all around) in use. During a FCY incident, all drivers need to slow and be respectful of the incident and the workers dispatched to the incident (which is indicated by a waving yellow). After you clear the incident, you should be back up to "near race pace" (ok, maybe 8/10's), in order to catch the traffic in front of you, to allow the pace car to get the field under control. The only thing (at least for the first lap) that differentiates the fast parts of a FCY track from the parts you need to "slow the heck down" is that waving yellow.

Once the group is gathered behind the pace car under a FCY, then the field is really under control. Until then, the workers are kind of at our mercy, and our common sense, which wasn't real common last week.

Dan
 
Two things

First, changing the rules about waving yellows versus standing yellows could cause more complications.

WORKERS! Please ROCK your standing yellows!
It adds the motion to catch our eyes, without going to a waving yellow. This is a very simple thing that some workers do and it makes a huge difference.

Next, we are all at risk to make mistakes. BUT it should be first and foremost in our minds as we go out on track to do everything we can to minimize possible mistakes, so as to have the least impact on the safety of those around us. Basically, plan to race clean; plan to race safe; always take that split second to calculate the risk before making a potentially boneheaded move... There are going to be times when you'll want that position badly, but the risk of passing, say, on the right through turn 10 (the concrete-lined-kink) at PR is potentially life-threatening. When it is, don't go there!

My rant--it is looking like there is a discrepency in Conference between those of us to whom contact is not acceptable and those for whom it is. The second group definitely depletes the fun-factor and the finances for those around them. Knock it off and go race something else if you like to hit things. Most of us are out there because it's fun, not because we're trying to be the next F1 find. (Yes, I'll admit I'm extremely competitive, but I know I can't race without an intact car...) Many of us are on a very tight budget and a wreck can sideline us for a long time (not fun or good for race entry numbers) or even permanently.

We are coming up on ORP which is a difficult track with a very high numbers of ways to do something dangerous. If you are going to ORP, please think all this through. A safe weekend is going to depend on drivers staying on the track and being careful about which chances they take.
 
epsdan said:
I don't agree.

I'm with Lynn on this. The waving yellow is something VERY specific - the incident is within the jurisdiction of the corner waving the yellow. It should remain as it is, and not be used to "generally" get a drivers attention.
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I 2nd this.

It's our responsibility as drivers to keep our focus BOTH on the task at hand AND on the messages (IE: Flags) given to us by turn stations. They are what they are for a reason; for a specific message. By using and maintaining an appropriate level of "awareness aptitude" it keeps our corner workers safe and us safe as a by-product.

I agree with a lot of what Mark says even if I would like to see much of it worded better but the flag thing; I'm with Lynn and Dan. EYES UP people, EYES UP.
 
ICSCC is not unique in their flagging techniques. It's understood that motion is easier to detect, but in most cases we can only create some 'body' language with them to emphasize our true sense of urgency. We can't divert from the original rule set as they are, although there are some slight variations subscribed to by other motorsport applications throughout the US, and some parts of Canada.

Also, we can't MAKE a driver look at them.

mr_magoo.gif​

Of course, it gets busy out there, and things happen faster than many of us can keep up anymore, but one must wonder why they are suddenly the fastest cars in that section of track. Sometimes it takes a section for the visual affect to sink in.

Personally, it's not the 'pass' that has ever bothered me it's the 2x driving through the section (passING) that makes the situation so unsafe. Because you (we) know that the drivers' concentration is really focused on posturing, and positioning not the yellow flag situation that they are coming up upon, or waiting for that 'magic' after the incident line. And the "I know that I can make the pass before the plane of the flag and it's all legal like. Safety of the manuever entering the equation as a secondary consideration.

Nobody wants to screw up a driver's race, but it is the responsibility of the drivers not to screw up anybody elses, not the flaggers'. Having a special set of rules for our flagging because we are ICSCC, and we get to make whatever rules we want is not a logical reasoning either. We have good flagging regulations, and they are as close to the rest of the world as they need to be for compatiblity with the presumptions of visiting competitors from afar.

<Once upon a time>
SCCA used to have a waving white for emergency vehicles as ICSCC (and most everybody else) still do today. Then somebody in a drivers' suit at some Nat'l event back east made a case. And took it up the chain of "Good ol' boys" to contend that they lost a position, and perhaps the championship because they mistook the waving white flag for a yellow, and lifted letting their competitor pass. Some of us might say "That's racin'."

Maybe if we could mount a buzzer under everybody's butt, and set it off from Base Comm with the initiation of a FCY, it would help. Of course, I kid. But there's always another way approach a problem by making somebody else responsible for a solution.

Consistency is the real key. Both in driving, and flagging.
 
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I happily defer to Lynn et al. on the matter of the waving yellow, but let's recognize the simple reality that when making a turn, in traffic, in the midst of a tight race, with the turn station on the other side of the track, some will miss a simple standing yellow; we all know that people often miss standing yellows, especially at some stations (like turn 6 and turn 8). We can rant all we want about "people should be looking," but it's ignoring reality to think that everyone will see a standing yellow. If it's acceptable within the protocol to "dance" a flag, that helps a great deal; any motion greatly increases the probability the folks will see it.

The idea is safety; let's do what we reasonably can to increase the safety factor.
 
Ken Killam said:
Maybe if we put a buzzer under everybody's butt, and it went off with the initiation of a FCY, it would help. Of course, I kid. But there's always another way approach a problem by making somebody else responsible for a solution.
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Ken - you kid a lot! On this one, however ...

Carlo, Rick Edwards, Ted A, and a number of others who have raced in Grand Am will tell you about the "delphi light" (actually an array of LED's). When the course goes FCY, there is a yellow light (mandated) on the dash of each car that starts flashing. It gets your attention.

It's more money, and something for DB and friends in the tower to deal with. It's an option, though, if it's necessary to get the message to everyone.

Wouldn't you just rather drive heads up?

Dan
 
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Hear, hear Randy!!
In regards to the incidents at the start of the group 2 race Sunday involving the #70 car, the turn 2 contact appeared to stem from the #12 car being in #70's blind spot, should there be a blind spot? no, but I see this as a racing accident and not "dangerous driving". In the second incident the #70 car had good position for the inside of turn 3a and had been there long enough for the white car to know he was there. The track in that area is not smooth as attested to by the fact that both cars are moving around quite a bit, one moved out while the other moved in and contact was made, again a racing accident not "dangerous driving". I know the driver of the #70 car, he has decades of racing experience, multiple class championships and is an ethical and genuinely nice guy who I have no fear of driving next to (if I could go that fast). For anyone who is afraid of this fellow I would suggest you come over to his pit and get to know him, I'm sure you will come away impressed.

Mark Ridgeway
PRO 7 #187
 
Mark Ridgeway said:
Hear, hear Randy!!
In regards to the incidents at the start of the group 2 race Sunday involving the #70 car, the turn 2 contact appeared to stem from the #12 car being in #70's blind spot, should there be a blind spot? no, but I see this as a racing accident and not "dangerous driving". In the second incident the #70 car had good position for the inside of turn 3a and had been there long enough for the white car to know he was there. The track in that area is not smooth as attested to by the fact that both cars are moving around quite a bit, one moved out while the other moved in and contact was made, again a racing accident not "dangerous driving". I know the driver of the #70 car, he has decades of racing experience, multiple class championships and is an ethical and genuinely nice guy who I have no fear of driving next to (if I could go that fast). For anyone who is afraid of this fellow I would suggest you come over to his pit and get to know him, I'm sure you will come away impressed.

Mark Ridgeway
PRO 7 #187
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Wow. Just, Wow. How anyone can look at that video, and in any way decide that #70 isn't horribly, dangerously culpable, is amazing. How you can look at it and decide that he's innocent is, well, unbelievable.

To review the bidding: In turn 2, he turned in on another car. If he didn't know that other car was there, at the start of a race, that's his fault. Period. It is his responsibility to know who's there. He either didn't know someone was there, or didn't care. That's not a "racing incident," as I accept racing incidents. It clearly was avoidable contact that wasn't avoided.

Going into turn 3A, #70 had room, and the car he bashed was not a threat. #70 moved into the other car, both in terms of overtaking him, and in terms of moving to his left, as is easy to see from both vantage points.

I don't know #70; I am perfectly willing to accept that #70 is "an ethical and genuinely nice guy." But that driving was horrendous. Horrendous. And no amount of chatting will change that. I really love my wife; she's an ethical and genuinely nice person, but I wouldn't want to be on the race track next to her in traffic, either.
 
Sometimes we do "rock" the standing and yes there are tracks (turn 6 at Portland) where the flags are hard to see and yes, you are in a pack and trying hard not to have contact, but for what we have seen lately, rocking it wouldn't have made any difference.

There is only so much that the flaggers can do, the drivers need to be responsible as well. This is a shared thing by all.

If drivers have a VISUAL problem with seeing flags at a turn, at any of our tracks, and there are some, please do not hesitate to bring it up with the Flag Chief for that track. We will certainly try to adddress the concern with that particular turn.
After all, we are trying to talk to the drivers with our flags and we need it to be understood. (please don't gripe about the glare of the sun though, as we can't work miracles...lol)
 
Wow great responses. I posted the video of the grp2 start for 2 reasons: 1) I was asked to from folks that wanted to see the in car of the incident and 2) while both Phil (#14) and my (#135) protests of the contact were upheld and #70 punished (when the results are final you can see how), I didn't feel the punishment matched the crime.

Randy is a smart guy and he is correct, I probably could have backed out when I realized #70 was running up on my right. I was waiting for the two miatas on my left to clear. Would I change what I did, you bet. I don't believe that mitigates responsiblity. And for those dissenting opinions, well hopefully you can learn from this too.

I'm fine and car will be ready for ORP, thanks to all that have called to check.
Mike Tripp
 
First off, I am extremely grateful you are in one piece Mike.

Nothing, not even the unmatched thrill of racing, is worth a life altering injury. My point was that if any of us think it's not a possibility, intentional, incidental, whatever, you're deluding yourself and should re-think your involvement.

I'm not going to draw any conclusions or definitively state who is at fault, in whole or part, and I'm not going to take sides, because I'm not privy to each person's view of the incident(s). I have been on the recieving end of a penalty in the past, for the most part deserved, but in this particular case the steward didn't speak with me at all before making his decision and issuing the penalty and fine. I had legitimate mitigating factors that needed to be aired, that were not considered, and to come to a judgement without hearing all sides is just poor form. I paid the fine immediately and took my lumps nevertheless.

I'd like to think Conference is "we", this is why I advocate for person to person discussion. What is happening here is too black and white and it's turning into "us" vs. "them" which serves no good purpose.

Glad to hear you and the car will be race ready in such a short time.
 
mtripp said:
...and #70 punished (when the results are final you can see how)...
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If the results sheet _can_ show the entirety of the punishment, then I am absolutely and thoroughly disgusted.

In case that wasn't clear enough; if his penalty is limited to a lap penalty, and not a multi-race ban, heavy fine, and many mandated apologies, then I am disgusted.
 
It's worth noting that the open wheel folks in Conference and SCCA manage to avoid the vast bulk of the carnage plaguing the closed wheel (particularly the momentum classes) groups. Gee, I wonder if the very real consequences suffered by BOTH cars in a crash in the open wheel classes has something to do with that.

As long as there aren't very serious consequences for bone-headed moves that damage the property and/or person of others, the behavior will continue. And a DSQ with a $100 fine would not be a very serious consequence for what we saw out there.
 
Randy Blaylock said:
Nothing, not even the unmatched thrill of racing, is worth a life altering injury. My point was that if any of us think it's not a possibility, intentional, incidental, whatever, you're deluding yourself and should re-think your involvement.
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I'm really not trying to be combative here. Being older than the average bear, I am very aware of my mortality, both on and off the race track.

My issue is that I perceive the frequency of avoidable, serious contact to be increasing. This thread has shown, in both videos and posts, that people are quite willing to both engage in contact, and easily forgive those who do. And my own experience in the Group 2 race magnifies that impression.

That most certainly is not what I signed up for, and, as a result, I am re-thinking my involvement in racing. I have always been willing to bear the risks that I deem to be unavoidable in this game, but I simply am no longer willing to share the track with people with whom I am not confident of going into corners side-by-side. Allowing people who have shown that they cannot be so trusted to continue racing subjects us to risks well beyond the "unavoidable."

The number of those folks is undeniably increasing; my interest in this game is simultaneously declining as a result. And that saddens and angers me, especially when some seem to take it so casually.
 
Good point about open wheelers - we do tend to be a little more aware of the potential result of contact. You should give it a go ;)

edit: might be a good idea to link to this discussion on that "how to increase participation in Grp 3 and 6" thread!
 
I will certainly be bringing my $100 bill(s) with me to ORP if the behavior seen at PR finds its way to ORP. Now that I know how the protest system works and that people need to be protested in order to be held accountable, you bet I'll be ready.

I was hit at Portland and I don't like it. I now pay close attention to him on track because the way he hit made me lose faith in him. If it was me behind the wheel of his car, it would not have happened. I do not trust him anymore. That doesn't mean the trust can't be rebuilt but it's just ****ty to race closely with people who's talent/skill/abilities/judgement you don't trust.

I 100% disagree with Mr. Ridgeway. If someone is a danger, they're a danger. #70 has earned that title...DANGER. I'm glad I'm faster than him because I would not ever want to race next to him. He clearly caused 2, possibly 3 accidents in 1 race. I don't think he belongs on the track anymore in 2011. As a volunteer instructor we have a place where we mark off: "Would you race next to him on track"... I would mark no, definitely not.

So now there's 1 driver in G5 and 2 drivers in G2 that I'm not comfortable racing next to... This isn't a good sign.

How many PRO3 cars have been wrecked in the last 2 Conference weekends? 4? 6? 8? When is enough enough?
 
1.
I think you guys are getting WAY too worked up over this.

2.
The day will come then you'll ALL will be sitting in the paddock after a weekend and recallying how YOU screwed up 3 times during a race. It happens, it's a 'part' of racing. Listen to what Randy is saying.

3.
I've seen a whole LOT of people behind the wheel of a race car that I considered 'unsafe'.

I said 3 months before the 1964 Indy race that Dave McDonald would have a BIG wreck. Didn't realize it would be a deadly 1st lapper. Said that on the basis of watching him race an "A" Corvette one weekend.

4.
I didn't see #70 do anything intentional to be considered 'dangerous'. Others seem to agree with me, raciing stuff that may call for a talk but certainly not banishment from the Kingdom of ICSCC.
 
1. I think you're getting WAY too little worked up over some depraved driving.

2. If I ever do in a race what #70 did, I hope both the stewards and I have the sense to end my racing career. Such things "happen" in racing only because people are not worried that that will be the end of their racing career, as it ought to be. After the first contact in turn 2, a rational person, concerned about the trouble he already was in, would either have retired from the race, or been on absolutely best behavior. But, no; our #70, seconds later, knocks another driver off the track in heavy traffic. Only pure luck, and excellent driving by those behind #70's carnage prevented two total disasters in the start of the Group 2 race. There should be very, very serious consequences for that, not "**** happens." Consider the consequences if that had happened in a novice race. Why would we be more severe with a novice, out of whom we should expect some bad driving, than with a seasoned veteran? Quite the contrary, we should realize that a novice can learn, but a veteran who displays that depraved driving needs to sit, for a very, very long time.

3. You are certainly entitled to be happy to race with unsafe people. I am not.

4. Anyone who thinks #70 didn't do anything to be considered dangerous (I don't care whether it was intentional or grossly negligent, the effect is the same) isn't watching. He should be gone for at least the rest of the year.
 
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Mark Ridgeway said:
Richard Broadhead seems to be thinking clearly, it's kind of refreshing.

Mark Ridgeway
PRO 7 #187
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It's "clear thinking" like that that enables depraved driving like #70 had. Heck, why drive well if there are no real consequences to driving badly? After all, it wasn't his car sent spinning through traffic into the weeds.

Sheesh....
 
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