Enduro???

Kyle,
You really need to take some notes from the Pro 3 guys. They took some time to develop it and worked together to get it where it is today .
 
Not sure I follow. The CSCC Enduro is not the same as Pro3. Though all of them are more than welcome to race in the Enduro. Please keep in mind the Enduro is on its 37th year so something must have been done right.
 
GTM,
I would love to give more insight about Chumpcar. But this is not the place to do so. If you wish PM me and I will be more than happy to chat with you more about it.

I do wish I had the Golden idea to make the Cascade enduro more successful but I don't. I would love to race another endurance series with fellow Conference drivers.

Todd
 
There are lots of good ideas that will be culled from this thread, but there has not been enough focus on ways to make it better. It started out with some pretty good answers to your questions on the first 4 pages. All talk and no action. I offered some ideas and pretty much fell to deaf conference ears. Sorry. I was looking forward to racing somewhere else other than NASA enduros and this is the next best thing. I, like most other people here have day jobs and have to plan for traveling like this and make it economical and affordable. I have cars to build and schedules to meet and sponsors to sign up. I've had enough here.
Until next year,
Richard Migliori
Stockton, Calif.

Personally the last thing I want to see is NASA in the NW.[/QUOTE]
 
Kyle - Need to figure out what they used to do right.

In just the last 8 years that I have been involved I have watched the decline in car counts. The big class has 4 cars, most have 1 or 2, not much of a race. 11 or 12 cars spread out around the track to be honest is about as boring of a race as I can think of.

I like Conference, I want it to do well, the best way I know of to get the car counts up and the fun back in the race is to equalize the field of cars down to a price level that more people can afford. It is the big fish in the little pond scenario. We have some cars and teams that are not good enough and don't want to go Grand Am or a similar series where they belong because they would be the little fish in that pond so they come here and be the big fish in our little pond where they don't belong. Fine for them but it sucks the fun out of it for most of us less fortunate racers.
 
So let's refocus on some ways to make the Cascade Enduro better and possibly then be able to add additional endurance events.
1. Will a 50% reduction in entry fee to 1st time owners increase entries? If I bring a new car I don't get the discount. Only for a car owner who has not run a ICSCC enduro before.
2. Do we need to emphasize the limited classes more? Or restructure them to achieve more class parity? A HP/WT factor rather than engine size driven classes?
3. Do we need to consider rescheduling to avoid the potential conflict of those entering the 25 Hours of Thunderhill which happens just weeks later?
4. Do we make shorter enduro events a part of the championship season? What about each club scheduling a 90 minute race weekend by combining run groups? Larger grids but few groups. I bet everyone would love to do a 90 minute race!!
5. Anything else??

Anyone on the ICSCC board currently following this thread?

Bill-
 
"Ways to make it better..."

It seems to me that the topic is... should CSCC/Conference continue with enduro racing (which isn't going so well) or do what they have had success at? Making it "look" more attractive may still be a losing proposition if the recipe isn't right. "Making it better" isn't just setting up a committee -- it's a complete re-design, mindset change, reorganization, financial business model and rule set revision. The references to ChumpCar were made, I believe, because of our success in this field. Conversely, we might suck at putting on sprint races. Again, focus on what you do well.
 
The only way anyone is going to get a good idea of why car counts for the Cascade enduro (for example) have been dropping lately is to ask the drivers at the sprint events this season. Not on the forum, not in the Memo, and not even at the individual Clubs' member meetings... those are all too small of a sample compared to the drivers in the paddock over multiple week-ends. I suspect there are two answers that will predominate, both being two sides of the same coin: money.
  • I used to race the enduro but then the economy tanked and I couldn't afford to do that and sprints (or they just stopped racing completely).
  • An enduro sounds fun but I think it would cost too much money to do it. I'd rather spend it on sprint racing.

I've been racing in the Cascade enduro since 2005 and the IRDC enduro every year they had it. Never in a car that was prepared any differently than it was for a sprint race, other than the same car prep you'd do before a season, and with the obvious exception of having headlights and a radio setup. In one of those cars, we pretty consistently beat objectively faster cars and/or "semi-pro" teams purely through pit strategy and smart driving. We didn't use a ton of tires, we didn't have crazy pit setups, and we weren't driving some high-dollar car. In most of those cases, we were running in the "fastest" class.

Really, the only significant difference between running an enduro and running a sprint week-end is the logistics. Well, that and planning.
 
You could certainly send out a very simplistic questionnaire with a return postage paid envelope when licenses are renewed. Wouldn't this be getting the pulse of the licensed racers as to why or why not the do not enter endurance races. As stated previously, I think people think it's overly expensive to do, when I think it is just the opposite with shared costs, etc....Good bang for the buck and there is certainly satisfaction from putting a team together and successfully finishing. I absolutely think a questionnaire should be sent out. Even on this form and this thread, questions put out there are seldom answered. For instance, Steve....what do you think about a significant entry fee discount for first timers? I'd like your opinion. And if this desire to grow entries for the Cascade enduro, is it that club which would formulate a plan of action to increase entries?

Bill-
 
Since it's Cascade's enduro, it's CSCC that would have to come up with the questionnaire and the postage. I would assume ICSCC would willingly share the mailing list with a member Club, but I know there are some rules about sharing the mailing list. IOW, this would not be a Conference thing, but a Cascade thing. That might be a route Cascade's leadership would be willing to take, but it isn't a Conference-wide thing.

Secondly, anyone on this forum can create a post with a poll in it. No special permissions, tools, or knowledge required. (It's in the "Additional Options" section when creating a new thread.)

Finally, my opinion about a reduced fee for first-timers is completely meaningless, as I'm not a member of CSCC, nor am I a non-enduro person who might be tempted to enter my first enduro if the entry fee was lower.
 
Steve....since CSCC draws from the entire ICSCC , I would think responses from everyone would be valuable. As I mentioned why couldn't a questionnaire be sent out with license renewals which are not club specific as I understand it. And, I certainly think your opinion as to reduced first time fees driving additional entries is valuable. I've already drank the koolaid but, if lack of entries is a matter of $$, I would think a reduced entry fee would drive new entries. I don't know how many frequent this forum, but maybe a poll would be of some benefit even if just placed on this forum. I just want to have 40+ entries at the next Cascade Endurance race.

Bill-
 
tim deckert said:
I think there is another interesting question: Say you buy a miata for $500 and decide to make it a racecar. You could race chump or you could built an ITA racecar for about the same amount of money. It seems that more are built into chumpcars than ITA racecars. I would believe it is less expensive to race an ITA Miata or BMW 325e(?) that run a crown vic over a season. We run a 360 tw tire on the crown vic and best wear is 3 weekends or maybe 2500 or so miles. I would think hoosiers might last that long on a little car. Add fuel, brake pads, fluids, etc and the budgets seem comparable. Why do people choose one or the other? By the way, I could offer a lot of reasons not to race a crown vic in either case.
Click to expand...

Before I started racing in ITA I thought it was extremely expensive to do club racing and viewing it from a former bartender's standpoint, it is. It isn't nearly as bad as I perceived it to be and that's why I continually bring up marketing/promoting because I think Club racing may possess some qualities that skew the perceptions of those outside of it in regards to it's barrier of entry or ease of participation (Conference less than others). Chumpcar has this affordability perception in spades... My chumpcar perceptions (and that's what they are because I've not done it) is that it's extremely affordable. But I have sat down and crunched the numbers it's not much more affordable than racing in ITA yet the perception of Club racing and Crapcan racing is vastly different.


So going back in time...

HPDE was my gateway drug into Club racing. If Chump Car existed when I was transitioning from AutoX to Track days I would have done it as soon as I could and have no doubt that it would have eventually been my gateway drug.

So that leads me into this...

How can Conference leverage CC as a Gateway Drug for new drivers? Both for Sprint races AND Enduro events?


p.s. I still want to rent a ride in a chumpcar race in 2012.
 
Bill Bonsell said:
Steve....since CSCC draws from the entire ICSCC , I would think responses from everyone would be valuable. As I mentioned why couldn't a questionnaire be sent out with license renewals which are not club specific as I understand it. And, I certainly think your opinion as to reduced first time fees driving additional entries is valuable. I've already drank the koolaid but, if lack of entries is a matter of $$, I would think a reduced entry fee would drive new entries. I don't know how many frequent this forum, but maybe a poll would be of some benefit even if just placed on this forum. I just want to have 40+ entries at the next Cascade Endurance race.

Bill-
Click to expand...

Well, let me back up a little: ICSCC does not put on endurance races. ICSCC does not put on sprint races. Member Clubs put on races, regardless of format, and ICSCC sanctions the sprint events as part of an ICSCC championship season. So, if Cascade wishes to hold endurance events AND have them be even vaguely profitable, it is Cascade that must query their potential market to see A) why attendance is down and B) what might entice them to come back (or come out for the first time). It is Conference members (and, hopefully, others) that are interested, but it is Cascade's task to drive. Having said all that, I'm sure Cascade's leadership would welcome any relevant data that would help them answer questions A & B, above.

"A questionnaire sent out with license renewals" gets a little sticky, organizationally speaking, because it is ICSCC that licenses drivers, not the Clubs. There are rules in the P&Ps, I believe (yes, I'm too lazy to look it up right now), that controls who can and who cannot have access to the list of licensed drivers. I don't know that those rules would prevent Cascade from accessing it, but it's something to think about. Also, ICSCC pays for the license mailings, but it would be unfair to the other Clubs if Cascade were to "piggy-back" on that mailing. Calculating the difference in price between an ICSCC-funded license mailing and a mailing that also includes Cascade's poll is theoretically possible, I suppose, but potentially... interesting.

As to why my (and yours, for that matter) opinion about reduced fees for first-timers (e.g.) is meaningless, it's because I'm not a voting member of the Club whose bottom line we're discussing, questions A & B don't apply to me, and anyone's opinion about the problem is useless. Unless you're part of the "problem" of drivers who either no longer attend or are unwilling to attend Cascade's enduro, your opinion isn't relevant data, which is what is needed.

Also, again, if you want a poll on the forum, create a new thread with your questions. It's really not difficult.
 
I think there are a few things going on here. As mentioned above conference and cascade as a member club puts on excellent sprint races, some of the best and I have run with most. Endurance racing is a different beast all together and in some cases requires different equipment and certainly attitude.

As a guest racer in conference who travels from Alberta it needs to be worth my while to make the long tow, I am certainly not your average target market, weekends like the Spokane Tri race make it so. I had an excellent time at the cascade 12 hour race, and was all gung-ho to bring a car the next year only to learn it had been shortened by 4 hours.

To me, and again, I am not your target market or maybe I am, 8 hours is less appealing to me as I need to absorb the cost of tow over 8 vs 12 hours. So for now I will continue to rent a seat when time permits.

This is the catch, sprint racers want short races to use as a shake down tune up or tune down at the end of the season, people interested in endurance racing want longer races where prep, strategy and skill can usually help balance the "cubic dollars" equation.

Not to steal any of John's thunder, as I have raced in his series numerous times, but I think with the advent and success of ChumpCar and Lemons the PNW is ripe for a series that takes it one step further, a NASA like enduro series. The sprint guys probably won't be interested and vice versa. Consider it the series for guys that want to use non 500 dollar race cars, although the MetroGnome ran times upwards of the e46 m3 at Laguna a few weeks back!

Oh yea and do away with fueling towers in all but the gonzo top class.

Anthony Kalcounis
Calgary, AB
 
That's one of the beauty of ICSCC. The members clubs are responsible for their own events, and in regard to events that are not directly related to the ICSCC sanctioned Championship series, they don't have to depend on permission for every decision by the committee of the other clubs' representatives.

It's also their own nickel that is affected, and so they must spend it wisely to market their endeavors to make more of them.

Thank you, for your support of 'Perspective', Mr. Adams.

Mating.jpg​
 
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I'm back!
Steve, you said half price is meaningless? How could you be so off target!...let me see....NASA did it with success, McDonald's does it with success, Taco Bell does it with success! Almost every business does it to attract new customers to their "new" product or reminder advertising. Nothing more, nothing less. IT WORKS!

It's time to re-invent!
Get ideas, steal ideas and make it happen!
 
GTM Racer said:
I'm back!
Steve, you said half price is meaningless? How could you be so off target!...let me see....NASA did it with success, McDonald's does it with success, Taco Bell does it with success! Almost every business does it to attract new customers to their "new" product or reminder advertising. Nothing more, nothing less. IT WORKS!
Click to expand...

No, what I said was that my opinion (or that of anyone who is already engaged in racing the Cascade enduro) was not important, because the questions were:
  • Why have car counts at the Cascade enduro dropped?
  • What can we do to get new people to try it out?

If you ALREADY see the value in racing the Cascade enduro, asking YOU what would help bring in people who ARE NOT is not useful information. We need to ask those who are not racing the Cascade enduro (or those who have in the past, but stopped) what THEY feel would get them to come out and do it. Anything else is just noise and not helping find a solution.

Please note that this is not my way of saying we shouldn't be spitballing ideas, which of course we should, but that asking the WHY/WHY NOT question of people who already ARE isn't productive.
 
Maybe I'm an example of your target audience?

I participate in the ICSCC/SCCA sprint races because I get a huge thrill out of driving my car at the limit (probably my limit more than my car's limit) for 30 minutes. I appreciate the high caliber of drivers found in Conference and the SCCA. Racing with them helps me improve as a driver.

Honestly, driving in a Conference enduro race really doesn't appeal me. If I'm going to drive in an endurance race, I'll do it for the social and entertainment aspects more than anything else. That's why I really want to do more crapcan races this year. Lemons, ChumpCar, etc. all offer that and over the course of a weekend. Plus, they tend to be more casual and most teams don't take it too seriously.

For me, at least, it's not about the Conference enduro entry fees. I think they're reasonable. It's other things as I mentioned above.

So, my motorsorts plan for 2012 is to race in Conference sprint races and at least a couple Lemons, ChumpCar, RollX-16, etc. crapcan endurance races.

Just my $0.02 (US). ;-)
 
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I have played all my experience and knowledge from a participants point of view as well as a business perspective along with stats from other industry crisis that parallel with this current discussion. I have delivered the following:

Market / advertising
stereotype busters
seminars / 30 minute demonstration at each event on both days.
Pit assistant program for new comers.
pre trial discount opportunity to fill the field
Look at leaniancy of licensing exclusive to endurance racing only
Brochures on "How to win at endurance racing" the dos and don't's. ( the booth idea is someone else)
How to get quality seat time at half the cost.
build a winning endurance team for less than the cost of a season of sprint racing
Rules and classes that don't break the entry level "buy in"
Offered suggestions on building a competitive endrance car for less than 5k including support.
Identify your goal and re invent the club not re invent the wheel.
For those that are interested that can't pull the trigger: have a list of credible shops that can do all or part of the prep work.

I am not a member here but am passionate about endurance racing and some day return to the North to win some races from you guys!
 
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