Enduro???

That reminds me. I should be lurking the Chump forum more. They're about to start out their season too. Because to the volunteering participant they are ALL endurance events.

Happy New Season to all.
 
Yes the entry fee is close to the same for both.

Yes the costs of safety equipment is the same. Getting to the event, eating and lodging is the same. But that is where it ends. What is a set of "R" compound tires going for? How much are you spending on rotors? How much for a endurance race motor? ETC.

Don't get me wrong I have tried the Cascade enduro. We where running 4th over all in tell we broke. We where getting our asses handed to use by 2 GT3 cup cars. I can't spend enough to bet them. "The Cascade enduro used to have a lot of cars running on a ChumpCar budget". Those days are gone.

I don't think in a Cascade endurance race the the lower budged guy has a chance to win over all.

One of the appealing thing about Chumpcar is anybody can pretty much win one over all. I have seen a Sentra, SHO Taurus, MR2, Miata, Scirocco and a Datsun Roadster win. Just in the northwest.

I wish I had more positive feed back on how to make Conference enduros be more successful. I would really love to race another one. Cascade is a wonderful club and I would hate to see a long running tradition go away.

Todd Stanley
 
Hi John,
Glad you popped up and chumped in.(LOL). I talked to you a couple years ago and found it wasn't for me. As I said in earlier posts, the nice thing you have versus others is the quick class and understanding of road racing and its rules or how the game is played. If you were to spend time running in circles with a chumpcar versus a real race car, I think the only thing I see beneficial is seat time. You can't develop a faster car by tweeking suspensions, playing with air pressures or even learn to understand the "finer" things in road racing. I would agree that it is a great place for a beginner in endurance racing, but for what it offers and the amount of racing dollars spent, it still does not make sense to a serious racer. How often would you see the same chumpcar during the season? Or how many races can you get out of a "500.00" "racecar" before you put another motor or rearend or gearbox in it? Do you build a new car after every race to stay competitive? I only want to build one car and be allowed to improve it everytime I hit the track. This is the spirit of racing! I agree with you about evaluating what your organization does best and then do it and do it well. It is apples and oranges and could go on for days debating all this. It is what it is! Two businesses trying for the racing dollar in different avenues.

Thanks for your input,
RM
 
To John Condron....I'd love to find a stock 90-94 Miata for $500!! I understand the rules for figuring out that $500 car price has morphed over the past several years. To find a crap can car...add all the safety equipment...and prep it so that it might actually run 24 hours seems to me to be pretty costly considering you can actually buy ready to race cars for 3K if you don't mind driving a Neon or some less popular production car. I have looked into building a Chump car but it does take a fair amount of money which I can better put to use running sprint races and the occasional 4-8 hour enduro. I hope ICSCC continues to offer at least one endurance race per year or figure out a way to increase entries and potentially add events, not drop them.

And I agree with Eric that CC is not a competitor to Conference sprint racing, but another avenue for those wishing to participate in endurance events. And I don't think it is being "snobbish" to appreciate the level of car preparation, appearance or the level of driver development which is the standard for ICSCC and SCCA racing. Hell, I even wax my race car!

Bill-
 
Hey Eric

As with most threads, they tend to wander around the subject.

I think the point of bringing up CC is to maybe learn from some of it's success and maybe find something that might be applied to Conference enduros to keep them viable. Maybe it was not made clear enough by me and others that you really can run a competitive CC race with a very low budget car. Staying with-in the CC rules you can build a top of the line winning car for around 5k but for a thousands less you can build a very competitive car that just might win.

A top of the line CC car would be a low budget car in a Conference enduro. Top of the line Conference cars cost many times more and also cost 2k or more an hour to run. If you want better participation in a Conference enduro then you need to take steps to make it more with-in the reach of the average-joe-racer. I can not state this strongly enough...if my average-joe-racecar is not competitive in a Conference race, then I am going to take it and my money somewhere else where it is. I don't have to win the race to have fun but I do want to be competitive and have a chance to win.

Another point that I think is important is the length of the enduro. I speak for myself but as evidenced by CC's success I think many others agree with me. A 4 hour enduro is a total waste of my time and money, even a 12 hour is not enough to really excite me unless it is a double 12 or some such as CC puts on. I want to race all day get a couple hours of sleep and do it again the next day. I really love the 24's also. As many have stated for many years there is nothing quite like racing through the night and then watching the sun come up through the window of your race car.

Yes in some races depending on the length and track the entry fee in CC is slightly more than a short conference race but when you spread it out among the drivers and divide it by the track time you get it is pretty cheap compared to any other race. I don't know the exact details but I think that although John is a nice guy he is not doing these races as a charity. He is doing this as a living, has all the same costs as Conference, plus paid staff. If you look at the car counts here in the PNW I think he probably even takes home a few cents after our races.

If Conference would make an effort to bring cost to play down for everyone, make rules that let the lower budget cars be competitive, I think that the number of participants would go up quickly.
 
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510,
that is why they have classes. If you run E3, chances are you won't win the overall, but you have a great chance of winning the class. If winning the overall in an enduro, you have to step up into a class that has the possibility of winning the overall. I want to win the overall and in class. It is very hard to do that when million dollar teams come to play. I accept that and just work harder at it. I'll settle for second. I know I can't compete with pro drivers and big budgets, but I know that going in. Classes do give every budget and driver level a chance to win! That is what's nice about endurance racing, you don't have to have the fastest car to win, just a better plan! You could take an E3 car and make some cheap mods and turn it into an ES car and have a chance of overall winning. There are some hidden advantages in the unlimited class if you look for them! Here is my take on running a chumpcar competitively. I could build a one time car for 3,090.00 Lodging, meals, travel, spares, entry. (5k) If I ran 4 CC races that will be close to 20k for a season. That is running a fresh car every race.(being competitive). I ran a real race (25) prepping a five year old car, for 16k+ and had 8k worth of parts for another season. I know its apples and oranges but good to see a comparison. One does not offer the excitement of racing wheel to wheel with pro teams with pro equipment, and big budgets, or to be in the trenches with pros and learn. I did observe a high school team at the 25 this year and basically, they were out classed. They brought crap to the table an expected way to much. CC would be a great platform for those that want to try it out, but still the buy may keep them at bay.
enuf 4 now,
RM
 
NOW someone needs to go through all these posts and put together a format for endurance racing and see what we have. There is a lot of great ideas here that somehow got left behind on the first pages. gather them up for a rough draft!

RM
 
Why not have the Cascade enduro join us at Portland or Spokane for a joint event?

BTW - the average life of a ChumpCar (the car, itself) hasn't been identified because we have cars that started running with us at the inaugural October 2009 event that are still running today... with 14+ races on them. On average, I'd say that 80% of all Chumpcar's have 10+ races on them -- many with the same engine and drive-train. Just because the car's value is $500 doesn't mean it's a POS. There are true $500 ChumpCar's out there that would give many a Cascade/Conference car a run for it's money. Same with drivers. One can't just compare lap times because slower times are probably more indicative that ChumpCars are running a bit more conservatively to last for a 12, 14, 18 or 24 hour race.

And, as far as $500 Miatas... I have personally bought 2 of them (1991 and 1994). Drove one home. We have about 20-25 Miatas in ChumpCar nationwide... all $500 cars.
 
Having fun racing, having fun driving, having fun finishing, did I mention having fun? This is the emphasis of CC, and I can only suppose, the other Crap can series events. There are lots of other trophies involved than simply winning class, or overall. But that's only a different kind of competition. That's only a different kind of "Bang". To all their own.

Perhaps if CSCC has decided to cater to the pro, or semi-pro aspects of the endurance racer market, then they have limited themselves to a market of participants with that perspective, and percieved prestige. But that business model may not be making the accounts balance. As amateur as that may sound, it is amateur motorsports that has historically been the true emphasis and taxable nature of ICSCC, and it's member clubs.

Perspective.
 
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Not sure Cascade could financially afford to spread out their endurance race into Sunday via a much longer event. They would have to have 40+ entries I would think to do a 25 over two days. I know we all had to be out of the north paddock by midnight running the 8 hour in October. Going back to marketing...I also don't think the endurance race is marketed very heavily even amongst Conference racers. There are a lot of newer racers who might actually not know how easy it is to run, especially in the limited class, and actually have a chance to win their class. As mentioned in an earlier post, NASA seems to have had success in offering a discount to grow entries. What if a 1st time entrant could register for 50% discount? The track is already paid for regardless of the numbers. If you could double the field via this discount, how great would that be. I'd be interested in knowing how many Conference racers might take advantage of this discount as an incentive to give the enduro a try. I'll tell you...going to the wall at the end of the 8 hour enduro as teams blasted by taking the checker gave me goose bumps. It was very thrilling. In fact the whole day was incredible. Even if the Cascade endurance race is the only one within Conference, it should be the highlight of the racing season...not just a throw in when the sprint season is finished!

Bill-

ps: and do we make any effort to market this Cascade endurance race to the SCCA community (at least to those who are not heading to THill for the 25). And does the 25Hr at Thunderhill affect Cascade turnout?
 
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There are a couple of very good talking points brought up here. I think the chumpcar turnouts speak for themselves, however, there are some additional nuances that I think are pertinent to increasing attendence at ICSCC enduros. In many races with high turnouts, you have a set of cars that break and DNF, a set of cars that are competitive and a group that will finish bur don't have driver skill to win. In my case I am as much as seven seconds a lap off the pace in my car from the conference racers or fast guys. So, some of the conference guys probably feel a little bit like they are dunking at the 8 foot net behind the elementary school if they don't have other conference teams to race with. Also there are lots of the drivers who do not have the skill to win who would improve greatly by going thru the novice program and racing in conference, even if it was just for a season to become better prepared for chumpcar. There is also a screaming deal in the ICSCC forum for sale, a race car, spare parts and a parts car for $1500.00 - that car could run conference, chump, lemons and rat race. Another point on the chumpcar rules, suspension mods like suspension bushings, shock and springs are not encouraged and that makes the cars less precise - as well as no race tires. I think those rules mean racers have to give up more room or be willing to rub more, although after reading about rubbing at the 25 and listening to some of the issues in Conference in 2011, maybe not. Anyhow, I think there are lots of very inexperienced racers in chumpcar who would be receptive to seminars on Endurance racing strategy and for sure driver training. I personally have learned a lot in driver training with TC and about endurance race strategy from conference racers. That was a long winded way for me to say there are lots of drivers and teams outside of conference who could benefit from the collected wisdom about driving, strategy and car set up that is resident in ICSCC. And it could surely be a symbiotic and not antagonistic relationship. Everybody should race more. And I might add, if you have raced chumpcars but never raced on an actual race tire, you really ought to try that too. Again, just my opinion, but I do think there is a target group who could be recruited into participating into conference enduros.
Tim
 
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GTM,
I understand the class thing. We where running the same class as the GT3 cup cars. We would have been happy to place 2nd to them. But you are forgetting something. Conference (Cascade) is at the "club racing level" not "professional level". I totally get your point if you are talking about Thunder Hill. I wish you would have beaten the Porsche that won, with a "smaller" budget as yours. And yes you don't have to be the fastest to win. We are clearly not in CC.

Your budget for Chumpcar is high. We built or car for less. We freshen or car every race. We use the same preparation for the car as we do for our "real race car".

Chumpcar is not your thing. So I get that. But the question is asked why the lower car count. I'm simply expressing my thoughts why and why I chose to do Chumpcar over Cascades enduro.

With Respect,
Todd Stanley
 
510,
thanks,
maybe, I am looking at it wrong? i evaluate each class and what it has to offer. My preference is making stuff and being an underdog. At the present time, unlimited class is the only class that allows to to build, invent, and out think your opponent with less. That is my thing. Endurance is the only venue that I can do that. My ranking: Chumpcar = bomber and Conference or other clubs / classes = late model racing. After posting that you freshen up the car after each race or install a new part, you have violated the 500 rule. you may have paid 500 for the beginning but now it is worth more and is not a true 500.00 car. Brings me to a thread I saw once about some innovative guys that actually challenged that rule with a cheap purchased, sold all the good stuff and replaced it with used junk and improved every place that counted to make a fast race car. Basically, the car generated its own funding for improvements. When you improve it = the value goes up. I am not convinced my overall expenses is that far off. It all depends on how prepared you want to be and how serious you want to finish and win. If one starts with a CC and the second race blows up and he either replaces it for the second leg, then I think that is violating the rules because the motor was not included in the 500.00 car, I don't think it came with 2 motors. If this is within the rules of CC racing, then what prohibits a team to buy a car minus drive-train and put in a prepared motor? (more cheating)? Now is it really cheaper? NO. Entry, travel, lodging, fuel, and misc. You make 2 laps and can't continue. That is about 1,700.00 per lap or seat time. Also, what kind of checker flag finishers are there in a CC 12 hour race? My point here is $500.00 is NOT $500.00. It is not "go out and buy a 500.00 crapcan, put some safety stuff in it and go racing."
 
"It is not "go out and buy a 500.00 crapcan, put some safety stuff in it and go racing." "

Well many CC teams do just that. Many get cars that have no real value and then use the $500 to spice it up a little. To many things to discuss and the wrong forum for doing it but you really should go through the rule set for CC and you would understand what we are trying to say. Many have the wrong impression or jump to conclusions about CC with out really knowing what is going on.

I would be happy to and I am sure Todd and others would be happy to chat about it with you on some other venue.
 
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I know pretty much every Chumpcar in Spokane and they are not $500 cars. If you don't have fabrication skills and or auto parts connections you really can't build a inexpensive Chumpcar. The biggest equalizer is the tires they are using. John fails to value the complete parts cars in the paddocks at Chumpcar races and what parts are left on it by the end of a weekend.

I ran this years Spokane Chumpcar race with no on track experience. I had my safety equipment sent over night so I could make tech on Friday evening. I had a blast and would like to run something like the 25 hour some day. The bad part is that age and the economy has caught up to me :( . I am not sure what the solution would be other then having an organization like NASA run a race in the Northwest .
 
I think there is another interesting question: Say you buy a miata for $500 and decide to make it a racecar. You could race chump or you could built an ITA racecar for about the same amount of money. It seems that more are built into chumpcars than ITA racecars. I would believe it is less expensive to race an ITA Miata or BMW 325e(?) that run a crown vic over a season. We run a 360 tw tire on the crown vic and best wear is 3 weekends or maybe 2500 or so miles. I would think hoosiers might last that long on a little car. Add fuel, brake pads, fluids, etc and the budgets seem comparable. Why do people choose one or the other? By the way, I could offer a lot of reasons not to race a crown vic in either case.
 
This thread was about how to make CSCC's long standing Enduro more attractive and keep it going.

Seems its turned in to a discussion about ChumpCar.

There are lots of good ideas that will be culled from this thread, but there has not been enough focus on ways to make it better.

Personally the last thing I want to see is NASA in the NW.
 
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