Enduro???

And regarding those SCCA drivers....please explain to me why we require them to put a "7" in front of their numbers? They don't require us to modify our numbers when we jump into their events. It certainly can't be because of the belief they may be inferior racers and therefore need to be identified. I wonder how they feel having to modify their car numbers to run one of our events! Do you think that is "inviting"? Personally, I think ICSCC should drop that little scarlet letter policy.

Bill-
 
In ancient times, 20 plus years ago IRDC had a mentoring program. It was based on individual's location to the mentor. It worked and built some good numbers. It fell by the wayside as the press of other matters took priority and leadership changed. The real problem is that we need people to come and get involved with the Clubs, IRDC, Cascade. TC, etc. to make these great ideas work that have been discussed on this thread work. 2-3% of a Club's membership does 100% of the work to put on a race, driver's school or Enduro and the promotion thereof. The bottom line with regard to Enduros is that Club's cannot continue to lose money and continue to sponsor races during the season. Volunteer with your local club and put your great ideas to work!!

The history of animosity directed toward ICSCC by SCCA would require another 5 page thread and probably needs to be buried as ICSCC continues to grow big race entrant numbers and SCCA continues to decline in race entrant numbers. Bill, come to the IRDC general membership or Board meeting and I will review that history and also the 7 number issue with you.
 
Bill Bonsell said:
And regarding those SCCA drivers....please explain to me why we require them to put a "7" in front of their numbers? They don't require us to modify our numbers when we jump into their events. It certainly can't be because of the belief they may be inferior racers and therefore need to be identified. I wonder how they feel having to modify their car numbers to run one of our events! Do you think that is "inviting"? Personally, I think ICSCC should drop that little scarlet letter policy.

Bill-
Click to expand...

Actually, the SCCA required me to modify my Conference number when I raced with them in May. I have a 3-digit number and I was required to cross off the first digit with painter's tape. No problem.

With as many cars as Conference gets at its races, non-club members probably need a number modifier (i.e. , a leading 7) since most 2-digit numbers are already accounted for. SCCA only uses 2-digit numbers, so putting a '7' in front of their SCCA number is no big deal. Just use painter's tape like I did. I don't see how this makes Conference less inviting.
 
I was under the impression that the '7' number was more a scoring identification issue as they are omitted from ICSCC Championship points.

Further than that may lend to the SCCA/ICSCC litigation around the early-mid '60's as SCCA attempted to protect it's rules/classing set(s) from ICSCC in court. Thus the beginning of at least one aspect of the 'bad blood' attitudes that have plagued sports car racing in the Northwest., as '3' and '4' are designator numbers. I'm sure Dick has much more on that perspective.

But the fact that SCCA, NASA, CASC, and ICSCC licensed drivers are qualified due to their experience, not any intrinsic sanction loyalty to enter and run in competition sports car events make them all worth competitors, and customers.

And SCCA simply doesn't have anything in the rules that would require their Timing/Scoring people to adapt to a 3-number system, and now days there is very little reason too. Now would be a time to look into racing with the SCCA folks, as many faces have changed, their ranks are pretty thinned out through the last few years, and it may be another valuable recruiting tool. But as it was put earlier on the thread... Haters gotta hate.

But I (we) digress.
 
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I will give you my perspective on endurance racing and recruiting new drivers. This will only be my opinion and as I am pre-novice you should read it with some skepticism. I have raced 24 hours of LeMons, chumpcar and Ratrace. After the first few races it was pretty obvious that I could use some more self confidence on track so I attended at TC driver training. The enthusiasm of my first instructor is what brought me back (thanks Jonathan). That being said, my racecar has just over 12,000 miles on track over the last 3 years and has had almost 20 different drivers. Most of them were brand new never been on a road course drivers, but also a few 3? conference veterans. The car is a 97 crown vic that was a city of Salem patrol car then went to the academy and was a "PIT" training car. So I have seen drivers pull into the pit and ask "What does the blue flag with the yellow stripe mean?" and I have seen drivers who splinter off the team during a race and develop a "sub-strategy" between the 2 fastest drivers. I've seen drivers set the fastest lap and hand the car off to the next drivers with no pad left on the brake pad. It has the same effect in an endurance race to overdrive the brakes as it does to stop and ask knucklehead questions. I have seen 3 drivers turn almost identical lap times, but one overheats the brakes, one spins and one use traffic so skillfully they almost never get passed. I've seen the car improve. I've helped take tire pressure, temp, and treadwear readings at every pit stop and adjust the car to get the tires working together. I've observed the benefits of meticulous measurements and computer programs for suspension set up. I didn't know that 3 inch exhaust is 10 db quieter than 2 1/4 exhaust. I've seen that a comfortable seat and driving position makes the car faster. etc. So, the enduros are a different races than sprints. Some people will tell you it isn't real racing. I disagree. To each their own. Though clearly some of Lemons and chump racing is very social or goofy and party-ish. Lots of road racers will also tell you dirt track racing isn't a sport or drag racing isn't a sport. I'm not really successful, but I try to remember what my mom said - if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. I started hanging around the pits during race weekends and was interested in the AS cars. Those guys have practically adopted me - I am really looking forward to racing with those guys - like other guys have said about other race groups. I'd say you have a target rich environment if you hang around at at Rat Race or Chump race you can recruit new conference racers. And I have a list of about 6 guys who have driven with me who need to become TC members and conference racers. I think many of the chumpcars would be fine as is for the Novice program. For Enduros I think some of the successful, well lead team's like Bloising Saddles should publish a leaders guide to endurance racing and team management, a list of lessons learned and things they plan to do differently next time. It'd be a great article for a newsletter.
Cheers, and Happy New Year, see you at the track
Tim
 
Welcome to Conference, Tim. Thanks for your insights.

Having raced in one ChumpCar race (and hoping to do more), I have to say that most of the cars there seemed to have all the proper safety gear. I forget, does ChumpCar require a kill switch? I think allowing them to race in the novice races is a good idea and a great way to get more racers in the club. Just remove the mannequin and table from the top of the car. ;-)
 
Thanks Michael,
and yes, kill switch is required in Rat Race, Chumpcar and LeMons series. And I think they are legal for Novice as the rules stand.
And the volvo with the mannequins (BJ's coffee) blew a head gasket at Rat Race ORP labor day and should reappear with V8 mustang running gear and sans tables someday. (They are the ones who donated coffee to everyone in the paddock who was thirsty at chump, rat and Bi Mart Salute to the Troops with NASCAR and GASS.)
Tim
 
When I said the 10% I was leaving it up to the driver/owner to come up with his co-drivers, from what ever sanctioning body they could recruit from.
 
I think many of the cars in CC would meet or exceed Conference safety standards but most would not be aesthetically acceptable to Conference.

Some nit-picky rules would keep cars and drivers out even though they would meet the intent of the rules. We paid our entry and tried to race one of our CC cars but even though the cage is very safe and well constructed of appropriate tubing we were not allowed to race it because the door bars and hoop on passenger side (last I checked passengers were not allowed in Conference races) were not located near enough to the outer skin of the door so it was dq'd. An exception would have been quickly made had it been a pretty BMW or some other nice appearing car.
 
Randy you are right! I had forgotten about those rules. The instant I read that I thought of the movie "Caddyshack". Now that you mention it, I'm quite sure there is a portion of conference racers who wouldn't be caught on track with my ugly crown vic, enduro or not.
cheers,
Tim
 
What kind of prior driver training are drivers in these Chump Car and LeMons type events required to show to be able to participate in those events?
 
Lance, quick answer is none. I admit that worried me the first few times I ran with them but I found that those worries were for naught. CC has some required class room training for new drivers and I must say that for the most part it is the new drivers who are the most well behaved and who drive under control. It is almost without exception the experienced club drivers who you need to look out for.

I don't like some of the theme and frat type nature of Lemons so I stick to CC races now. CC is a straight forward race series that allows many cross over cars with the theme aspect of Lemons to race but it is not a part of CC.

I urge you to give it a try. CC is as real racing as you can get. I am very serious when I say I learned more about driving in one CC event than in all my time in Conference. When you have starting grids of over 80 cars at PIR to well over 100 cars at T-Hill it is the most fun and most real racing you will ever do. There is no point of your driving stint that you are not passing, setting up passes, getting passed, and having to be more situationally aware than any Conference race will ever allow you to do. I enjoy racing Conference, but I have never had the fun that I had at my first PIR CC race in the rain with 84 cars to play with. The camaraderie at a CC race is not matched by any other event I have tried.

Tim, I have raced with you before and am more than happy to run with your big ol ugly crown vic any time :D
 
I have racing Conference since '98. Done well. Myself and a fellow Conference racer put together a Chumpcar team to try our hand in endurance racing. We have been very successful this year. We placed 5th on Saturday (7hr) and 1st on Sunday (7hr) at Portland in April, 1st at Spokane (24hr), 1st on Saturday at Portland in October (12hr) and 3rd at Laguna Sega in December (7.5hr). I'm not bragging by any means. I just want to show what Conference racing has done for me in endurance racing. But sprint racing is way different than endurance racing.

If you talk to people why they are doing CC over Conference racing here is why:

1. Sprint racing cost more. It's just a fact. GTM racer is correct as what he posted above. It costs just as much for 1 Conference race weekend as one stint in a Chumpcar. And even with 4 drivers you get at least 3 to 4 stints @ an 1.5hr to 2.0hr stints per event.

2. Seat time. You get, (give or take) 1.75 hr total in the car for the whole Conference (single event) race weekend. That's just one stint in CC weekend.

3. I"m sorry to say, but a Conference endurance race isn't cost effective. I know some teams change tires every 2 to 3 hours or so and run race fuel. That's a budget I don't have.

With CC there are tire rules, and car value rules to help keep cost's down.

I'm not promoting Chumpcar. I love to race Conference and you will see me in my FC this year. But I really think Conference should stick to sprint racing.

My 2cents.

Todd Stanley
 
Discouraging. What I read in many posts here is that CSCC's (it is not ICSCC's event) THIRTY SIX YEAR tradition of an Enduro is not worth it and we should either become a NASA event or a ChumpCar event.

I do read some folks saying its good, but not enough to make it fees able.

Boy the CSCC Board of Directors has a tough choice to make this year.
 
"fees-able"
Perfect description, Kyle.

You hear the phrase "Bang for your buck." Well, some people's idea of bang are different, as is how many bucks they have available to spend/bang.

Personally, as I did Auto-cross I did not feel that I was "racing" anything but the tick of the time piece. At least in drag racing it's usually head2head/W2W. Because when you get at least two vehicles on a circuit, at the same time, with the same goal of go faster than the other one, then I have to say that the competitive aspects of that style of motorsport is racing. How pretty your car, truck, motorcycle, ATV might be, its survival of the fastest, one winner, and every one after that has got to try harder... next time.
 
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Aside from the extra money that I spent for some car upgrades in preparation for the 8 Hours of the Cascade, it cost each of my 2 additional drivers about $500 to get a seat in the race. And that includes the 20 gallons of fuel each was to provide. They both both got over 3 hours of seat time as I did just one 100 minute stint. Now they had to get to Portland and deal with food, lodging, etc, but that's the case with any race weekend. I think that's pretty good bang for the buck. And we got a very nice trophy for finishing 2nd in class. I am not sure reducing the entry fee is going to make that much of a difference, but perhaps the entry fee could be significantly reduced for 1st time car entries. Once someone has actually entered and participated in an enduro, they will want to come back..well most of them will!!
 
Bill, $500 for over 3 hours of seat time is cheaper than what many Lemons/Chump teams are charging to drive their crapcans. Yeah, that is a pretty good deal.
 
proposing a one time "come and try it out" discount is a HUGE success with NASA last year. It actually increased the bottom line. What they did in addition to that is if you are entered into the sprint races(sat / sun) then they knocked 135.00 off the enduro entry. Look at the logistics: the track is already rented for the weekend. If you get 26 at full price and 10 beginners or 20 at full price and 20 beginners, you have a great field and a percentage will return after the "experience". The first year in NASA proved to be a good foundation for 2012! Once displaying only 19 average is now sporting 32 regulars! Racers will be more scrutinizing their race dollar and looking for more bang! Endurance will provide that and when racers find out how to subsidize the overall cost correctly, it will be a win win.

RM
 
Good day to all (and Happy 2012) -

First, I've found it quite interesting to read some of the perceptions of the ChumpCar World Series here on the Conference Forum, especially made by those who have never been to one of our events, or raced with us, or read through our rules. (Bill Bonsell - bring a SpecMiata to ChumpCar and, yes, you will get penalty laps (lots of them) because a SpecMiata is NOT a $500 car. However, bring a stock 1990-1994 with a stock 1.6L or 1.8L and there are no penalty laps whatsoever... and you'll have a great time racing.)

ChumpCar was created because of the changes in club racing that have occurred over the last 30-40 years (I started racing in SCCA in 1970)... changes that IMHO were not for the the better. Costs skyrocketed; rules became stifling; the bureaucracy was overbearing; and, "winning" was everything. Our focus is the opposite of each of those points -- keep costs extremely low (to the point that 4 high-school kids can build and enter and race a car, as has happened many times in ChumpCar); develop a simple rule set that creates a level playing field for all cars; provide no-hassle racing; and make "safety and fun" the most important aspect the sport.

That Conference and other clubs have been impacted by ChumpCar is not because of any one thing that we do (as our intent was not to critically impact other forms of racing). Rather, the impact you're feeling is because of what Conference and other orgs is NOT doing. Our focus is and has been to open-up racing to those who just couldn't break the financial barrier-to-entry or keep up with the high costs of SCCA, NASA, and other clubs... or those who couldn't stand the "my way or the highway" attitude of these same orgs. The bottom-line: our racers are predominantly people that Conference, SCCA and/or NASA would never have seen, or would have eventually lost because of high costs, rules, overbearing management, or just not fitting-in (aka snobbery).

ChumpCar could, easily, initiate a sprint race series in conjunction with our enduro series. Likewise, we could develop class structures among cars. However, that's not our focus. We're interested solely in endurance racing (and maybe that's because I'm only interested in endurance racing! LOL!). I learned long ago (in business) that a company can't and shouldn't try to be all things to all people. Instead, determine what you're good at and stick to it. So, ChumpCar will remain an endurance racing series that's open to everyone with a $500 car.

I'm not a member of Conference and my two-cents means nothing... but... if anyone were to ask, I'd suggest that Conference take a deep breath, figure out what it does best, clean up all the "issues" that prevent it from being better at that one thing, and focus on that one thing. If that one thing is sprint races for sports cars -- fine. If it's open wheel racing -- fine. If it's HPDE events -- fine. If it's just having a party once a year -- fine. Whatever. But, for Conference to want to do enduros (under 8-hour races), endurance races (over 8-hours), sprint races for 10 classes of cars, HPDE's, car shows and swap meets, etc., etc., etc... well, no one is good at everything.

And, when you determine what that one thing is... well, if it's sprint racing... call me. We'd love to do some joint events. A lot of our races are over at 11am on Sunday and the track is open for the rest of the day, or we can run at night at let Conference run during the day. There are lots of options. The goal is to make road racing stronger, not to factionalize it.

All the best -
John Condren
Chief Chump
 
Isn't the entry fee for the Cascade Enduro lower than the ChumpCar entry fee? $875 vs 900?

Racing is as expensive as you want to make it. I won the Cascade enduro using the same set of tires for 12 hours. Besides the initial car cost is ChumpCar that much cheaper? Most people in both use pump gas, the safety gear is similar cost, parts wear out, driver and crew have to travel and eat. The Cascade enduro used to have a lot of cars running on a ChumpCar budget.

I don't think ChumpCar is a competitor to the Conference Championship season but it is clearly a competitor to the Cascade Enduro. Isn't this thread about that race and other Conference Enduros? Clearly ChumpCar is doing well.
 
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