Really?

In answer to Wes Tiptons post

As your president I feel obliged to inform the membership of my concerns about the e-board announcement concerning the upcoming Spokane event. To make this event happen the E-board reversed it previous direction of requiring SCCA certification on our race tracks. Spokane will not have any certification in place for the July 15/17 events, but in its place our steward will be required to approve the facility. Drawings presented at the special meeting indicate areas of concern to your president. The e-board is encouraging you to race on a facility engineered by a Landscape Architect with the safety advice being provided by George Follmer a retired professional driver of vintage racing fame. The circuit will be protected by hay bales, concrete landscaping blocks and highway barriers. In each my terms as your president I have experienced roll over accidents at Spokane which fortunately have not resulted in serious injuries. This injury record is not luck but is attributable to the safety requirements demanded of the participants in our competition regulations. It was my hope that the revisions to Spokane Raceway would have addressed my concerns.
As your president I take the responsibility very seriously of protecting ICSCC members and the integrity of ICSCC. I have failed to convince the e-board of my concerns and I apologize to each and every one of you for my failure.
To everyone traveling to Spokane I wish you luck and good fortune.

The opinions expressed in this post are the opinions of Kevin Skinner only and are not the majority opinions of the e-board or ICSCC headquarters

Kevin
 
Are you suggesting that the E-board's carefully considered reversal of direction constitutes dereliction for purposes of expediency? Your choice of words prefixing the advisory and closing are telling.

If certification is a benchmark so critical why is it not then codified in the Policy and Procedures manual, rather than being completely absent?

Is the steward's approval not allowed and ordinary per the Competition Regulations?

Do we not have insurance as required?

Perhaps the decision is a practical solution to a challenge that balances the risks reasonably. I don't know for sure, but am signed up for the race weekend and will assess for myself whether or not the risks fall within my personal framework, as I do at any circuit I visit.
 
Randy, Thanks for your rational comments. They enabled me to delete a bunch of thoughts.
As ICSCC's insurance advisor, I can tell you that I have the insurance certificate for the Spokane race in my possession. I've worked closely with our insurance provider to make sure he is comfortable with the level of review that the Spokane track has received.
I am compelled to clarify that the Eboard did not reverse its prior stance. There is not, and has never been a policy requiring SCCA certification in the ICSCC P&Ps. Its simply not practical. For instance, the Spokane track will never be raced by SCCA for reasons having nothing to do with safety, so they wouldn't put their hand to a letter of certification. Instead of hiding behind someone else, your Board has taken the responsibility directly.
As the ICSCC Insurance Advisor, as a past Steward, as an individual who puts on many track events, as a member of the BMW Car Club's National Driving Events Committee, I've been as involved in track safety as anyone in Conference. I've reviewed more incident reports than I can count. If you don't trust your steward and the other officials of ICSCC to give you a safe racetrack and a safe racing environment, then you shouldn't get on track with us anywhere. What you need to know is that your steward, several past stewards, and the Board of ICSCC will putting out the effort and expense to come to Spokane this Sunday, July 10 to review the safety improvements of the Spokane track. If it isn't ready you will hear about it. However, I'm certain it will be ready.
I hope you will come race with us.

Scott Adare
 
I am registered and looking forward to running Spokane in the 944.

As a side comment, the way information has been disseminated is a bit random and certainly the strangest thing I have seen in my 4 years running Conference events. Some things don't seem to compute... we have one set of folks saying insurance is in hand and everything is dandy, and others undermining the process saying the track is not safe or we should not decide until a couple of days before the event. The President's own posts confuse matters further. The inconsistency of what 'official' info is posted is what frustrates so many when we know people are working so hard to make this event happen.

It also does not provide for a good public image for the group when trying to get a high take rate for these long-haul events. It has come up a bunch in our 944 discussion list when people are trying to decide whether to schedule attendance. After tracking these threads, I have just about thrown in the towel and bought some tickets to the Soundgarden concert at the Gorge instead. But I am staying the course to support those who put their butts and wallets on the line.

I thank our leadership, NWMS, and the many volunteers for their efforts to expand our racing in the PacNW. Now that we have gone through this process for ORP and Spokane, I hope that we have the foresight to clarify the rules on certification and course safety appropriately this fall ahead of repeating this whole situation with The Ridge. Being relatively new, I'm not sure exactly what that entails. But I would hate to see us not learn from the past and undertake this debate a third time.
 
kevin_skinner said:
As your president I feel obliged to inform the membership of my concerns about the e-board announcement concerning the upcoming Spokane event. To make this event happen the E-board reversed it previous direction of requiring SCCA certification on our race tracks. Kevin
Click to expand...

That's not quite factual either. Pacific Raceways (Seattle International) LOST its SCCA certification some time in the late 1970's. Yet, ICSCC continued to sanction races at the facility.

Without a WHOLE lot of effort, Pacific Raceway was 'recertified' (by the SCCA), Hmmm don't recall when but I believe in the late 1990'a AFTER Jason regained control of it.

P.S.

In fact, the SCCA as an organization doesn't have a 'staff' running around certifiying tracks. They hire people who are qualified to go do it. Such as George Follmer. Jackie Stewart, Brian Redmond, etc. al to go look at the circuit and see if there are any 'obvious' problems with it from a safety stand point. Then they write a report suggesting changes. Once completed the track is deemed 'certified'.

Track inspectors of the highest level use appendix O of the FIA sporting code. Which really is well beyond what club racing tracks "need".
 
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sadare said:
Randy, Thanks for your rational comments. They enabled me to delete a bunch of thoughts.
As ICSCC's insurance advisor, I can tell you that I have the insurance certificate for the Spokane race in my possession. I've worked closely with our insurance provider to make sure he is comfortable with the level of review that the Spokane track has received.
I am compelled to clarify that the Eboard did not reverse its prior stance. There is not, and has never been a policy requiring SCCA certification in the ICSCC P&Ps. Its simply not practical. For instance, the Spokane track will never be raced by SCCA for reasons having nothing to do with safety, so they wouldn't put their hand to a letter of certification. Instead of hiding behind someone else, your Board has taken the responsibility directly.
As the ICSCC Insurance Advisor, as a past Steward, as an individual who puts on many track events, as a member of the BMW Car Club's National Driving Events Committee, I've been as involved in track safety as anyone in Conference. I've reviewed more incident reports than I can count. If you don't trust your steward and the other officials of ICSCC to give you a safe racetrack and a safe racing environment, then you shouldn't get on track with us anywhere. What you need to know is that your steward, several past stewards, and the Board of ICSCC will putting out the effort and expense to come to Spokane this Sunday, July 10 to review the safety improvements of the Spokane track. If it isn't ready you will hear about it. However, I'm certain it will be ready.
I hope you will come race with us.

Scott Adare
Click to expand...


So if SCCA certification is not critical then why did "headquarters" make TC jump through every hoop imaginable to race at ORP...when by your statement the stewards can determine the safety of a given course?
 
I've heard both that Naughton DOES require certification for new tracks and that they don't. What I also heard, in regard to Spokane (where we can't actually get SCCA cert.), was the certification could help to protect ICSCC in the event of an incident that exceeded our insurance coverage (since Naughton trusted us enough, based on our past record, to grant us insurance for the 3-day just for our asking).
 
My last post in regard to 'no cert, no race', was misleading because it could have implied certification by SCCA, which I already knew was not happening. Still it has to be certified, approved, or signed off by some person or party, which appears to be a steward/E-board combination from what I'm reading here. George Follmer is involved in other track certifications I believe, so his input carries a lot of weight in my opinion.
Sorry Kevin if I included you in my congratulations for a job well done, but that congrats still goes out the board for their efforts. I am a bit shocked and suprised that you are against this event, but I do hope it goes well and everyone in attendance has a great time. This triple is a real turning point for Conference, and hopefully there will be more double and triple week-ends as we move forward.
 
Wes

Looking forward to sharing the track with you again. Give some thought about entering the Hare and Hound. It has been a long time since group 3&6 got a special race so I would like to see 15 or 20 of us on the grid. Besides with a calculated finish time you do not have to win overall to win the 500.00 you just need to win the calculated times just like an old time H&H but without the staggered start. The whole idea is a special race that everyone can enter and everyone has a chance to win based on their driving skill, not the overall performance of their car.

Greg

Greg
 
Sounds like great fun Greg, but my participation that week-end is up in the air right now. I registered awhile back, but work is very hectic right now, and after 10 months of incredibly slow business, I am suddenly very busy with two huge projects that demand my close attention. If I miss this event I will be at PR for sure.
Either way,good luck, stay safe and have a blast!
 
As much as I can appreciate the fact that Wes has finally found something else to do with his time';-? It's a shame. You'll be missing a historically landmarked race weekend, I think. A real presidence setter...

Once on a long time ago, much Conference family effort did all of the good things toward putting that racetrack near Spokane on the ICSCC (any) map. It survives today much due to those same Conference family values, and perservance toward the propogation of our great sport.


Thanks for another opportunity.
 
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If you are really interested in what Conference had to go through to get the Spokane race to this point I would ask you to attend your Club meeting and listen to what your E-board representative reports. IRDC, July 6, tomorrow night at 7:00 PM at the Sizzler at South Center.

A little background, from the Conference By-Laws

ARTICLE II, BOARD OF DIRECTORS.

SECTION 1, MANAGEMENT. The affairs and business of the Corporation shall be managed and conducted by a Board of Directors. (Your 5 Club E-Board representatives)

SECTION 2, DUTIES. The Board shall have the control and general management, acting through the Conference President, of the affairs and business of the Corporation.
 
Stereophile33 said:
So if SCCA certification is not critical then why did "headquarters" make TC jump through every hoop imaginable to race at ORP...when by your statement the stewards can determine the safety of a given course?
Click to expand...

I would be interested in an answer to this. I'm new to all of what's going on and glued to all of this even though I don't know all the details of the story but I don't see a clear response to this in the replies following it.
 
I wanted to add a few comments to my last post in regard to our president. Kevin and I have been friends seemingly forever, and served a number of years together on the Conference E-board during some rather hectic times in the late 90's. Kevins passion for this organization is, and always has been unwavering, and his opposition to the particulars on this Spokane issue are obviously based on a lot of Conference history. I have to commend him for sticking to his guns and his willingness to take the inevitable flak that came with it. The full details of this issue are unknown to me, but either way he has served us to the utmost of his ability, and that is very much appreciated by yours truly.
 
I am at the IRDC General Membership Meeting

As I type this. Our E Board rep, Bruce Boyd, gave a thorough, clear, and generally excellent report on what is going on with the Spokane race. If you really wanted to know, you should have bothered to show up.

I know, I nag.



dick_boggs said:
If you are really interested in what Conference had to go through to get the Spokane race to this point I would ask you to attend your Club meeting and listen to what your E-board representative reports. IRDC, July 6, tomorrow night at 7:00 PM at the Sizzler at South Center.

A little background, from the Conference By-Laws

ARTICLE II, BOARD OF DIRECTORS.

SECTION 1, MANAGEMENT. The affairs and business of the Corporation shall be managed and conducted by a Board of Directors. (Your 5 Club E-Board representatives)

SECTION 2, DUTIES. The Board shall have the control and general management, acting through the Conference President, of the affairs and business of the Corporation.
Click to expand...
 
reply to Colin:

colin_koehler said:
I would be interested in an answer to this. I'm new to all of what's going on and glued to all of this even though I don't know all the details of the story but I don't see a clear response to this in the replies following it.
Click to expand...

Colin et al., sorry for the delay in answering. I'm an infrequent visitor to the forum.

When ORP was built, I was asked to contact our insurer and find out his requirements. His answer was that he needed some kind of approval, and at that time, no one in ICSCC was willing to do said approval. There were several options discussed. For instance, Baskerville Architects were suggested, since they had recently done work at the Spokane facility and I had familiarity with them. SCCA certification was suggested, in part for its credibility, in part for its value to also allow SCCA races at ORP, and in part because there was a subsidy in the cost from FIA. Recently, one of the ORP owners told me that SCCA certification was ORP management's choice. SCCA certification was never a requirement of TC. I was involved in streamlining the process as it concluded. I made 2 visits to ORP on behalf of ICSCC to help expedite the approval process and to report to our insurance provider.

I will agree that once SCCA approval was chosen, all of their hoops had to be jumped in order to finalize that process. I will suggest that having done that, ORP is better for it. But, was it required, no!

With respect to Spokane, there will never be SCCA certification. In part because, unrelated to safety, their certification requires 32' of width (SCR is 28' in places), in part because SCCA doesn't have enough presence in Spokane either for them to think its worth it, or for the track management to pay for it. NWMS is interested in making the track safe, but they have no specific interest in SCCA certification, they wanted ICSCC approval.

One last response to the general suggestion in this thread that SCCA certification provides some kind of relief from liability for ICSCC- It does not/would not. ICSCC's insurance is in place. It is greater, by far, than any track settlement in US history. That settlement was at an SCCA certified track. The incident included a partial payment for approved modification to the track barriers and placement, yet, no sanctioning body, other then the one running the day of the incident was named in the suit. If SCCA won't get sued, then they can't indemnify any award. And, from that case, we know that SCCA certification does not preclude claims that the track is fundamentally dangerous.

This is a dangerous sport. People can and do get hurt. However, it is the responsibility of ICSCC at Spokane and everywhere else to manage the risk of injury and to ensure that safety is paramount.

In the runup to Spokane I may not get back on this forum, please send any questions to me directly at sadare(at)aol.com. I'd be happy to answer.

Scott Adare
 
Ding, ding, ding, ding!

SEE?

Now was that so hard?

Thanks Scott.

"His answer was that he needed some kind of approval," That's what the insurance company required to issue a 'certificate' of insurance. Thus certifying an approved facility. I think I've got it.

So, approval may have been left completely in the hands of ICSCC as a corporation at that point, or considered the responsibility of the facility management for proper marketing capability, I suppose. That kind of puts the whole board in the process of credible facility approval, doesn't it? I wonder what book they refer too.

Some years ago, before ORP was more than dirt, this was presented for assessment, and potential adoption of all or part to streamline this approval process.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/D2162D1A054A333AC12578100053ECC3/$FILE/11.01.06_Annexe%20O_%202011.pdf

It may not be the final word, but it's a start that can get started when the track construction/restoration/modification gets started, and not two weeks before the event gets started.

"The old closet ploy."
peter_sellers_inspector_clouseau_pi3.jpg

"I really must congratulate you;
if there's one thing I enjoy,
it's a good closet ploy."​
 
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