2011 ICSCC schedule posted

Does this hypothetical tangle occur when the novice in the March Indy car is passing the senior in the FA, or is it some other form?

If the elements of this example are indeed the test, then we should also segregate the novice in the hypothetical 650hp Viper from the other novice in the hypothetical 70hp Datsun roadster. I guess we're going to need two NCW groups. At least in the first example, theoretically one of the racers is supposed to have the experience to hopefully mitigate those risks, within a historically less populated group.

We all know this isn't really the crux of the issue. Also, the success of the PRO-3 class is not the issue here, and they certainly did not ask to be the focal point of where this discussion has gone. Can we stay on topic please?

The real and legitimate issue here is how to ensure the continued existence of Conference for EVERYONE, then we can move on to the territorial pissing.

In order to continue to exist, the correct balance needs to be one that emphasizes continued solvency, before anything else. There isn't any government assistance program for racing, and we won't be receiving any bailouts. With solvency ensured, we will then have the luxury to apply whatever altruistic measures are deemed necessary and palatable within that framework, to support whichever groups that consistently have an imbalance of entries, and thus revenues.

If this means promoting proven successful special race roups, which as a documented matter were in fact the tipping point from red to black for both IRDC, and perhaps more importantly ICSCC, then that is what we should do.
 
"In order to continue to exist, the correct balance needs to be one that emphasizes continued solvency, before anything else."

Bingo, winner, winner, correct answer above!

See Randy, you get it even without a Masters in BA from Harvard ;-)
 
No other form Randy. Forget the safety factors then. I only mentioned it to consider the odds of an inexperienced driver within NOW getting in the way of something like the Mad Dog Rocketship. I shouldn't be so subjective in my analogies, I suppose... but there it is.

Please do not take my query to mean that it is ONLY a safety issue, and leave to rest the fact that from what some might understand of the intent of transferring the NOW into Grp 6 was not to fill that time with 'special' race groups. Or at least that is not what I understood to be the reasoning.

Also, I believe that it has much to do with progressing with the times. Not to compete in a market with NASA, or SCCA, but to adjust to the ebb and flow of current trends in participation, and the retention of those folks that indulge in that market. ICSCC has established, and successfully maintains a solid foundation within the 'amateur motorsports' market.

I truly enjoy the GTCC, and Japanese special groups, as I have the SFR, FF, and GASS ideas, but the word "special" means something 'other than' the established race program.

When it comes to any sport it is important to stick to the fundamentals, and our clubs have survived, and will continue to survive within those parameters.

The schedule was freed up, and there is, and will continue to be a real issue of over-subscription with the continued success of the more popular classes. Is it not logical that the Pro-3 class not be considered for it's own Group as the numbers dictate?

This would leave open so many options to assist in relieving some of the pressure in Grps 4, and 5 to adjust their classing around, and allow the potential of those classes growing too. I can't be the only one that would take those other groups into consideration.

I'm not trying to be pissy, but I have to believe that the "big picture" is drawn with many variations of color. We are all allowed a perspective in this game, and it may not be always the same.
 
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As a side note, the GTCC race last year was the first Conference event for many of the members of the PacNW 944 Cup group. Based solely on the positive experience from that event (ALL GTCC cars finished the race!) we have many of our drivers clamoring for more opportunities to "run with the BMWs". As a result we have scheduled more Conference events for our group this year... all because of the appeal and execution of the special race at Pacific last year.

With a regional car count approaching 20 cars, we represent a solid block of new revenue to bring to Conference events. There is no question that adding a large number of cars to the existing Group 5 grids could exacerbate the issues... but I certainly think that is a good problem to have in this economy!
 
"In order to continue to exist, the correct balance needs to be one that emphasizes continued solvency, before anything else."

They combined 3 and 6 in 2009 at Spokane and it worked, it was a fun race. There was discussion prior to the January meeting to allow the Steward to combine the groups this year as the numbers dictated. We have a small rule problem with that and we had more pressing issues to address so it didn't get on the agenda. I think it is going to happen and my point is that the time be taken with a group that will grow and provide added solvency for the Clubs and Conference. Look beyond the established groups that have already grown and matured.

Back in ancient history a decision was made to NOT allow Vintage groups to race in Conference. Perhaps now is the time to look at that again and tag into the SCCA Vintage regulations. Some of us have heard that there is some irritation at the regulations among the Vintage Clubs membership. Something to think about, investigate and consider as another source of revenue so that our racing can continue.
 
The combination of 3 and 6 is something that has been coming down the pike for a long time. IF and when that happens, it doen't mean it has to be that way forever. I'd be delighted if the combined group grew to the point that we had to split them again in the future, but for now reserving that time for what is typically less than ten cars is going to create real problems if we have 60 cars show up to race Group 1! But I am off that soapbox, the Board is working on it although more slowly than I would like.

There is a different point that I would like to add, as I have had the opportunity to discuss this with several who are heavy participants in OW and CW groups:

All attempts to find out why open wheel cars are parked in darkened and forgotten garages have basically failed. Attempts to locate those missing drivers along with those who have migrated away from Conference or just away from racing altogether have also failed. It's not like there aren't plenty of us who are involved with the operation of both the Clubs and Conference as a whole haven't made an effort. The path we tried isn't working so we started to think about the problem from a little bit different angle and suddenly a forest appeared amidst all of the trees!

Most of the cars that populate Groups 3,4,and 6 are not really "entry level" by description. The common way those groups grow is typically through infusion of drivers who have already learned the ropes and developed some skills in more limited production based classes.

There are a number of classes that we could all point to that we would advise new racers to start in because we feel they will give them a combination of the best driver development and the best racing for the buck. Pro-7, Spec and Club Spec Miata, Pro3 and ITA. Lots of competition, limited development, a high emphasis on the development of driver skill. If you can win one of those classes - you can drive!

Some stay in these hyper-competitive classes all of their racing careers and thats great, absolutely no knock on them - getting the most out of ANY car is a trick mastered by few at any level. But others, after staying some time in these more restrictive classes and learning what racing wheel to wheel is all about, long to try something else. They picture themselves in a different marque that they have always admired, or a light and precise formula car, or an eye popping sports racer, or a tube framed monster that operates in a whole different area of the performance envelope. There is a reason why most who are driving in groups 3,4,and 6 started in something less demanding. It is a high leap to get to the level of some of these highly developed cars and many wise drivers choose to use a less developed class as a step ladder.

I would argue that classes like Pro3 and 944 cup will be more likely to be responsible for the repopulation of groups 3,4, and 6 than their demise. There will be 50+ Pro3 cars prepared and available to race in the 2011 season. Their support of our events and special races has already made it possible for us to remain solvent and extend the grace period for Group 6 several year past the anticipated combination. They are excellent volunteers of time, effort, and money who bring credit to themselves and the organization. Take a look at the quality of driver that is being produced by these spec and near spec classes. As great as those classes are, some of those drivers will simply not be constrained by that particular performance envelope and are already looking to move to cars with new challenges and higher limits. We are racecar drivers - its the nature of the beast to always want bigger, better, faster!

Rather than hating the growth of some of the competitive closed wheel groups, if I were in the open wheel community I would be talking to some of these ITA, Miata, and Pro3 pilots about where they see themselves in the future. Where they are now may just be a stepping-stone to the next great racing experience. They are already starting to show up in tube framed cars and they may well swell the ranks of Formula cars and Sports Racers in the years to come.

I can honestly see myself driving in ANY of the six groups if the right situation came along. We are all RACERS. What kind of car someone chooses to race is a poor reason to deprive someone of your friendship or at least your respect.
 
Ahhhh, the group 3/6 discussion again. Wes and I have more years between us out at the track than almost all of the people in group 4 combined, but that does not matter at this point.

Mr. Bostrom brought up a GREAT point about group 3/6 cars...they are not entry level. The amount of attention to detail necessary to make one of those cars fast on a consistent basis can be mindboggeling (spelling?). To be able to drive those cars quickly takes a lot more than it does to do in a production car. There is also the HUGE expense of crappy little 105 hp (sorry, but the engines have not changed much in 30 years and no one is going any faster...114 hp is not real track power) going in excess of $11k for a CF or FF motor. Heck, I bet you could buy an entire front running production car from almost any class with spares for that. Between the cost and complexity of the cars/class, people simply have left. Yeah, there are a few cars left in garages, but my car, as well as most of the other people who sold their cars, are gone from the region. I would LOVE to see group 3 be what it used to be, but times have changed. People want easy, inexpensive fun and the formula classes are not that. Unless you get someone like myself or someone who knows how to make one go fast you can get so far down the rabbit hole that you cannot ever get back out without the expense of such.

I am a diehard open wheel guy, no doubt. But we have been unable to prove that we have the numbers, and they are getting worse. When I raced CF in 2007 we had more CF's in group 3 than we do total of CARS between 3 and 6 in 2010. Majority rules, minority rights. We will always have our place, but we cannot rule like we did against larger groups of cars. The large groups pay the bills and we need to encourage their growth at the fairness of everyone if we wish for our hobby to survive. Who knows, someday we may be having this conversation about another group, but if we don't work together for the greater good we will all fall.
 
jharvey said:
...going in excess of $11k for a CF or FF motor. Heck, I bet you could buy an entire front running production car from almost any class with spares for that.
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Ha. This is totally off-topic (although the "topic" is the fact the 2011 schedule was posted and not race groups, said the Admin... :p), but you really ARE a die-hard open-wheel guy: You couldn't even buy a mid-pack, cost-constrained Pro3 for that. As for front-running... not in any of the classes I've ever run in. :)
 
Some where along the line I think that either I or this thread got pushed into the corn field some place. The title of this thread started as "2011 ICSCC SCHEDULE POSTED HERE". How did it get into the cars per group class?

Do not get me wrong, I have read thru all of this and there is a lot to be said about the why's and where's of the groups, not only in conferance but in SCCA as well.
 
jharvey said:
.... There is also the HUGE expense of crappy little 105 hp (sorry, but the engines have not changed much in 30 years and no one is going any faster...114 hp is not real track power) going in excess of $11k for a CF or FF motor......
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NOT ANY MORE! Jay Ivey has already built the FIRST FF engine using the NEW (improved) "Kent" block. Available from Ford Racing products for about $1,200 :) :)
 
I have a question. Why does no one campaign a Spec Racer Ford in Conference? I haven't raced in Conference in over 30 years so I am a little out of touch. But I've always found it odd that I go to an ORSCCA event and there are 15-20 SRF's, and none at a CSCC event the next week.
Thanks
 
One of my dreams is to own an open wheel car. If fact, I am looking for one now. Not sure what to get, but what-ever it is gonna be fun and fast. Thinking a FA or FC, but hell, if things go the way I want it may be an older Indycar!! (OK, right,,,,but seriously). Who knows what the future brings!!
 
I would love to see 15 SRF's at a conference event. I have asked that group to give use a try but no response. SRF is an SCCA class only. SCCA developed those cars for close competition, several have full time sponsors and a commitment to run SCCA events. If anyone can convince that group to spend a weekend with conference, I will be forever grateful.
 
Dave Bennitt said:
I would love to see 15 SRF's at a conference event........ If anyone can convince that group to spend a weekend with conference, I will be forever grateful.
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Then again, maybe not. There are very, very few here in the Seattle/Tacoma area. Most are running in the Oregon region or SFO region of SCCA. They are also famous for some serious bump drafting. Can be seen (a few) at the SCCA Double National at Pacific.

Action Jackson used to have 2 SRF's one of which he would rent out to SCCA racers when they ran at Pacific or Bremerton. Don't know if he still does that.
 
Remembering the 'special' race at a Spokane event a few years back found Mr. Manchester on his lid at T1 after an altercation with Mr. Neiss. Kinda messed up what could have been a good close quarter race. And every once in a while you'll see one at PIR in Grp 6, and I believe there was one hardy soul at ORP last year too.

But by all means, keep talking to them. There are a lot of very good 'spec' drivers out there. Prodrive and Flat-out Racing have the stables with a few individual owner/operators.

As Richard points out, most are at SCCA events. And any more, SRF, and SM are the only decent sized fields for the most part. Vintage is also pretty well subscribed, but they will combine their OW with CW in a group.

So that's where you'll find their ears come on out and bend a few... ears that is.
 
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Ken Killam said:
.... but they (SCCA) will combine their OW with CW in a group......
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Yes and our (ICSCC) open wheel/closed wheel cars play very nice together in Group 6. But that's because we have a whole bunch of really good guys who are out for the 'fun' of racing while maintaining their equipment. SCCA has run FA, FC, FB, C/SR, D/SR together for a long time and it's an ENDLESS series of complaints from the drivers about that grouping. Trouble waiting to happen and it often does.

Now some people want to combine Groups 3,6. FA, FB, FC, FF, CFF, FL, FV, Legends, C/SR, D/SR, NOW and I guess you'd put SRF's in there too. WOW!
 
Ken, I believe there were 7 SRF's at the last ICSCC ORP weekend running with 5 or 6 Legends.
It was awesome.....read "no carnage" and lots of blues.

I think the SRF's were using that weekend as an expanded Test 'N Tune for seat time before an SCCA event.

And yes it would be great to have them come out and play a little more often.
 
Richard,
I was referring to Vintage running OW, and CW primarily, but on lightly subscribed Regionals I've seen the ORSCCA run the both regular OW groups together with SRFs in practice only. I have observed this from various points of view with T7, and T11-T12 being the harriest.

And it ain't pretty, when the FA, FB, FF are swinging around the small packs of SRFs as they set up for that turn, and slip in, down and around the slower traffic. You can feel the surge of adrenaline.
 
Yes, FA's and FB's are just super quick. NO mistakes allowed. And FF's are 'tender' don't want to see any of them tangle with fenders.

Ken Killam said:
....... both regular OW groups together with SRFs in practice only......
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THAT was one of the options presented 'informally' here on the FORUM by Wes and I to pack more racing time in to the weekend. Combine various groups for warmup sessions and in some cases for qualifications also. But leave the race groups alone.
 
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