is chumpcar bad for ICSCC and SCCA?

Thanks for the clarification, Ken, and I now understand what you're talking about. I think what happened, from a driver perspective, is that people who didn't/hadn't had the opportunity to run the 25-hour discovered what a hoot endurance racing is. And if a little bit of a good thing is good, then a LOT of a good thing must be better, right?

I know that's the way it went for me, anyway. So far I've run in the 4-, 8-, and 12-hour events put on around year and I've had a blast every time... even when things went wrong with the car or I didn't turn in a very good performance. If I could've found a way to run ChumpCar, I'd'a been there, too.
 
Valet parking fee

Ken Killam said:
Once upon an enduro season...

CSCC and SCCBC's enduros were one to two weeks apart, and that, with only a brief rest-bit from the end of the ICSCC season. The CSCC had a 6 hr, and then SCCBC had a 7 hr. @ WESTWOOD.

I never got up there for one of those, but I hear that they were pretty whooopin', too.

Anyway... If it isn't obvious, both clubs were cooperating to keep their traveling bands of local enduro enthusiasts banding to travel to both shows.

Then the woods died. An unfortunate circumstance that gave some credence to increasing the time for the CSCC event. This seemed a natural thing, and introduce some more 'dark' time for the drivers. Entrys? Not a problem. So 8 hrs was a success for a couple, some years. Did we do a 10 anywhere? But things being as things become it wasn't 'enough'.

12 hrs, please. :eek:

"Yes, sure, thank you sir, may I have another." Lets throw in some fuel towers, and attract some REAL attention. Especially when they all hear about our dazzling full service 'curb side' race vehicle recovery team.

We validate parking too.

It has been a very long, but happy season for most of us, I think. The economy is kickin' everybody's dog. And nobody wants to be the one that doesn't recognize that people will spend whatever it is that they decide to commit to our great sport. Considering these new, and real changes, it's time to keep as much focus on the 'relative' fun factor that flavored that participation initially.

We all want it. We all know how to get it. We just need to remember where we've left it sometimes.

I think that a 24 hr @ ORP would be a real gasssss (in the grass).

Robby? George? Dick? Wes? Check my history essay, will ya?

If it there are insults that may be considered unintentional, please consider them. :p

Thanks, Steve. FWIW.
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Hey Ken, you forgot the $100 retrieval and valet parking fee for the Safety team :D
 
So lets get on the Enduro Committees and get this back to where we all want them. Both drivers and the volunteer folks. We don't have to make money, just meet all the expenses. Obviously the more entries the less $$.

There is the rub. The numbers have been going down. Why? I'd love to know everyones perspective. Is chumpcar and Lemons the culprit? Is the economy? Has the fun factor left the building/track? What?

If we knew well in advance how many teams would comit to participating, and that does really mean they WILL be there and fork over the money, then the entry cost can be adjusted closer to the break even point. We need to look elsewhere for participants too. How do we attract them and get them to spend their time and dollars here. Why is that important? Obviously the more people we have the better, but on top of that money coming from outside Conference relieves some of the financial burden on members.

I agree with Ken that we need to make this a fun event, no matter how long it is. We do need to keep up with the Jones' too. Why IS NASA so successful? Is it the payout? I can not believe there would be ANY place friendlier than Conference because it is us the DRIVERS who set the rules. Don't like them then join the Enduro Committee and work at making it better.
 
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Between the enduros just restarting a few years ago, the recent economic situation for many, and the fact that enduros are "extra" races for almost everyone, I don't think there's any need to panic about the local enduro situation just yet. The venues are known and the rules are consistent and mostly predictable.

As for NASA enduros, is it really that their stuff is "better," or just that the 25-hour, for example, has developed momentum of its own over the years?
 
eric_krause said:
Or, maybe the success of the Chumpcar 24hr and the TH25 show the Conference enduros are too short. :D
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I haven't thought about it, and know it was an "in jest" statement, but considering that there was only one entry for the 6 hour, and 25 teams for the 12 hour, Mr. Krause may be onto something here.

Dan
 
I'm talkin' to a wall, here? Or isn't that an 'arrive and drive' perception. :rolleyes:

36 hr @ORP!!

Who's in?
 
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Speaking strictly for myself...

I've run the 4- 8- and 12-hour local Enduros, and crewed a couple of times at the 25-hour. The '08 Cascade 12-hour was the most fun I've ever had racing, even though we had car trouble in the first 3 hours and weren't competitive.

This year I had to squeeze my racing nickels a bit so there was no 12-hour for me. But I expect/hope that '09 was an anomaly. I'll be back, be it 8- or 12- hours, or whatever form it takes.

But I'm not sure I'll ever participate in the 25-hour as a driver. It's bloody expensive to campaign a car in that race, given the distance to travel, the length of the race, the Thunderhill gas tax, etc, etc. It may be only modestly more $/seat-hour than our local events, but it's a big chunk of money all at once. And there's always the possibility that your car breaks or gets taken out early-on. If that happens in a local enduro it's not nearly as much money over the falls.

Chump Car is an interesting diversion, but I see it as only a diversion. I'd like to try it, but I don't expect it will dilute or diminish my interest in Conference enduros.

So in the spectrum of endurance racing events we have regionally, from CC to the 25-hour, Conference hits the sweet spot in the middle for me.
 
epsdan said:
I haven't thought about it, and know it was an "in jest" statement, but considering that there was only one entry for the 6 hour, and 25 teams for the 12 hour, Mr. Krause may be onto something here.
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My take is there is a core group of people that will run an "enduro" whatever length is spelled out (6hr vs 12hr). It's the cars that are not showing up to be concerned about (if car count matters). When it was all 6hrs, grids of 40+ cars were common, and that was a full and busy track, in a fun way. Also, less wear and tear on the car is a concern for a 6hr vs. 12hr event.

6 hours is still a "fun" enduro in my eyes. Run during the day and a little into the night, and be packed up and in a restaurant for a late dinner. 12 hours is a different beast and for the serious teams. Sure a 6 hour was offered, but when run with a 12 hour, it sort of makes the 6 hour sound like a glorified lapping day. Flag football in the middle of tackle football if you will.

that's my take...
 
I agree Lance, the longer races are more costly and generate a lot more wear and tear on the cars and the drivers. I enjoyed the 12 last year, but I did enjoy the 8 more. The 25 is for serious teams with larger budgets, but I hope be able to participate in that one someday soon somehow. Being a stand alone type of event it has attracted a lot of attention and has become quite a success, but was it all due to the wounderfulness of NASA? Don't think so, and I don't believe they really put out a product all that different, or better, than what we offer, althought there are those who would disagree.
My first enduro was in 79' at PIR, which was a 6, so co-driver and I did an hour and a half each with 2 stints, and it was a blast. There were a ton of cars at that event for decades, but with this economy kicking most of our butts, whether it be sprint races or enduros, it makes it hard to tell where we really stand.
There are obviously a large number of us who enjoy the enduro experience, and a few who now do enduros exclusively. So I'd bet that when the economy turns around, (and we aren't too old to drive by then), we will see the grids increase quickly. The 6 hour format at PR will works really well, when it doesn't snow of course, and I trust IRDC will stay with it for the long term.
 
I'm going to open the can of worms... Comparing the 25 of T-hill to our enduros isn't fair.

Thunderhill is a longer, much-more-interesting track that is more centrally-located for the whole W. coast. The track itself is a great draw--it's one of my favorites.
PIR is simpler and "safer", with a great surface.
Seattle is more interesting, but farther from many W.coast people and has a terrible surface.

You just got to work with what we have and do the best we can to be fun.

I think enduros sound interesting, but haven't felt like abusing my own car that way. Maybe next year I'll join someone else's team?
 
I was actually referring to the management more than the event itself Karen. I know it's a great track, and far more challenging than either of our 'big' NW venues.
I don't believe personally that they have a better product, but definitely a better business model. We really do not approach our events to make big dollars, while I understand (and naturally could be wrong), that NASA is more of a professional entity. Do their other events generate the same interest as T-hill, such as their version of the run-offs? Do they really run their events more efficiently than we do? Better worker base, etc?
 
Ken Killam said:
I'm talkin' to a wall, here? Or isn't that an 'arrive and drive' perception. :rolleyes:

36 hr @ORP!!

Who's in?
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Ken,

Help me out here- I'm not getting it! ;-)

I agree with Bob - if it's 4-, 6-, 8-, 12-, or 24-, and I can afford it, I'll be in. Both enduros that Team Tic Tac ran in were a blast this year!
 
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What exactly is this discussion about? Are we hinting around that the drivers want ICSCC to run more Enduros during the year?

Do the drivers feel we (as in ICSCC) don't hold enough Enduros?

Would enough drivers show up to run 4 or five 6 or 12 hour enduros a year?

Would enough workers (who are about pushed to the limit on time, travel and money) show up to support additional Enduros?

What impact would this have on the sprint racing? Would drivers do an increased number of Enduros a year and still support the sprint program?

If you plan on doing the sprints and also run 4 or 5 enduros a year, you just about gotta have the budget to support 2 cars. Except the Pro3's of course. They seem good for about 50,000 miles of racing and track days a year.

AND:
If it's not more, then what's wrong with the way the ICSCC Enduros are being run now and what do you see as needing "improvement"?
 
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Good discussion; I think I'll join right in!

The wear on a car after a full season of sprint racing, then 12 hours of endurance racing is substantial and must be considered when budgeting for such a schedule. And yet, it still can be done rather affordably (considering what it is).

We spend the whole season tweaking our cars to go fast for 30 minutes, smack-talking our competition, bitchin' and moanin' about this and that - in 30 minute increments.

The Enduros, however long they may be (2, 4, 12hrs...) invite something that the sprints can't: a true driver team with complete crew to make it for the duration.

That's what Team Reaper is about. We've now run three different enduros with the same four drivers and basically, the same pit crew, and have come away from each event feeling the team is getting stronger.

What better way to really get to know your fellow Conference-ites than by having them as part of your team, and not just another competitor? I sure can't think of a better way.

The idea of the same team working outside of the sprint season to secure P1 is strong enough, in my mind, to want to take this a step further: build an enduro-specific car.

I recall Hal Hilton mentioning these points at an IRDC meeting years back when he was introducing the NWERS as a series that could eventually run parallel to a sprint season. There'd be teams formed and points awarded throughout the season; enduro-specific cars would sit along-side sprint season cars in garages throughout Conference...I guess that was asking too much of our club?

Our Enduro Series is one of the best kept secrets in all of the national club racing scene.
 
mikeolsen said:
.... Our Enduro Series is one of the best kept secrets in all of the national club racing scene.
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Maybe not so well known. But not a deep dark secret. I was conversing with a guy on Apexspeed that was planning on coming from Virginia to run the end of season Enduro. But personal events kept him away until the 2010 Enduro :) He did run it in 2008.

I must admit that since I was 13 years old (and that's way back) I've always felt the 'purest' form of sports car racing was 24hr Le Mans. A true test of man and racing machine. Just think, it only comes around ONCE a year and ICSCC drivers get to do 2 of them a year :cool:

On the other hand, it's a much different form of racing then sprints. Takes a bigger budget, more preparation and it's a "quick fix" compared to a full season of the slow but steady joy in sprinting.

There is another reality to face. The ChumpCar 24hr event drew neighbor complaints about noise event though the limit was 94 dB. Can you imagine even trying that at Pacific? Oh yeah :eek: Could get a 12hr in if we absorbed the Saturday night drag racing noise allotment hours :D
 
Randy Blaylock said:
Enduro specific car, hmmmm...
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Mmm...I am thinking silver/grayish, not the fastest but keeps running and running like the energizer bunny turning out consistant lap times.

I also know a red and white car with the same attributes usually.
;)

Although the wear and tear of enduros is tough as is the associated cost I would love run my car or team with in an Enduro someday. My brother and I have crewed for the past 6 enduros and love it. The entire team is envolved and must perform well to have a chance at a decent finish. Of course as with all racing luck figures in too.

Back on topic Chumpcar is a different sort and in no way (my thinking) completes with ICSCC Enduros. It is like comparing apples vs. rutabaga's.
No threat to ICSCC. Or SCCA either. I think it is a fine idea for some.
 
There is another option for end of season 6 hr + fun without having an enduro specific car - a relay race. Google "birkett 6hr relay race" as run by the 750MC in the UK. You run your own car for an hour or so (depending on team strategy) so it only gets the same wear as a sprint weekend but you are in a team with your normal season competitors. Lots of help, advice etc and all the emotion of an Enduro.

If anyone is interested I tried to float this idea for Mission a couple of years back and did make some estimates of handicapping based on conference lap records per class.

Imagine the different speed differentials between existing classes - all on the track at the same time and the "slower" cars being given X laps head start so that , in theory, all cars do the same number of laps at the end of 6hrs. That means a GT1 car would have to lap a ITA car about 40 times to gain a lead.

The UK race has been oversubscribed every year and I believe this year was the 58th event.

Anyways, if there is interest I can pass on my inital work at rules, handicaps etc and ICSCC can make this happen.

what is a relay?
4 to 6 cars in a team; a team is made up of the same class of car; who can do the most laps in 6 hrs (or more); handicap based on class lap records and tweaked to allow for driver ability; strategy is up to the team. One car from the team on track at a time.

James
 
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