is chumpcar bad for ICSCC and SCCA?

I thought I'd have a hard time staying awake, but I had a harder time falling asleep.........

I think I got about two hours during the fog stoppage.

I don't think Chumpcar is bad for either club, I think it's a welcome change and had perfect timing for the Northwest racers, workers, etc.
 
randy_buell said:
It was the #00 Porsche 944 next to our pit. Good group to pit next to and it was great of them to take out the chicane :D
Click to expand...

Yeah that was us. You can thank the PCA DE chair for that one! Something about red mist and a Mafioso Fiat :D I too believe the nature of that chicane made it inherently dangerous. There were no issues the entire second half of the race after we finished it off at 2 AM. But 5 different people hit it during the first half. The entry was on the right of the backstretch so in side by side traffic trying to pass, it got a bit sketch. With the chicane, it left really only the front straight for mixed traffic to sort itself out.

We had a blast at the event! Everything was run smoothly, the people were great, and the energy was very high! The racing is different than with ICSCC or SCCA. In addition it is expensive to actually build the car (lots of safety stuff) if you already have a race car. If anything, ChumpCar built up a new appetite in me for endurance racing. That was my first enduro outing, my first night driving, and my first 2 hour stint. Next month I'll race an E30 at Thunderhill. And hoping to continue to expand that next season.

It won't replace Conference or SCCA that is for sure. I relish the competition from more experienced drivers... at least the guarantee of previous wheel to wheel experience.
 
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Dave - I bit my tongue after the first post but I guess i feel I need to find out what has soured you on the Conference experience.

Although I am a dedicated Conference racer and one of the people who volunteers a fair amount of time and effort to help provide racing opportunities for Conference members, I also have participated in events with other organizations. I always observe what they are doing with a keen eye to see if I can pick up something that we can add to out organization to make it better.

I actually thought about building and entering a car in the Chumpcar race simply because I like endurance racing and thought it would be fun to gather some close racing friends to try one of these low buck outings. I didn't for a number of reasons:

1) I get a very real feeling of safety when I race knowing that our fantastic volunteers are out there looking out for us. I heard that Chumpcar was having trouble getting enough people to man all the turn stations and lacked relief crews for those that were manned. I felt that presented an elevated level of risk for me personally.

2) I'm also used to racing with drivers that I know and for the most part respect. At the very least I know that they completed our well respected driver training, recieved a license and drive under the continual scrutiny of stewards who are not only experienced drivers, but know most of us by name and accumulated reputation. They are charged with doing whatever they need to to protect our safety and history shows they have done an excellent job. Chumpcar had a rather large number of inexperienced drivers who may never have been in a wheel-to-wheel race before. Pulling them off the track AFTER they have t-boned someone or, god forbid, caused a serious injury is not the best way to separate the challenged from the talented, regardless of the promise of goofy or creatively humiliating penalties. Again - a bit of concern over elevated personal risk levels.

3) I'm dedicated to and financially invested in racing a car that brings me great enjoyment but will never fit into anything remotely resembling "inexpensive" and "lightly modified" criteria. Chumpcar would be something like an organized kart race that I would do for fun with my friends, while the Conference season is a much more serious competition - formal racing between serious drivers in serious cars. I would have loved the opportunity to run something like Chumpcar before I earned my Conference license, so I can certainly see the appeal. At this point in my racing life, I could run a Chumpcar race or instead, add another date to my Conference schedule for similar money. I'm most likely to run the extra Conference race in a fast car that I am already invested in than building a car to run a once a year event.

It sounds like you have some issues with the the number or height of some of the hurdles one must clear to be aConference driver. If your definition of "trying to suck the fun out of it" includes comprehensive driver training, demonstrated and license verified levels of competence and accountability, required appropriate levels of safety equipment, experienced and motivated safety personel, and the kind of infrastructure required to successfully put on safe top quality amateur racing for over 50 years - then count me as a "sucker".

We strive to have the kind of organization that people are a part of because we make them feel like family. Our events are friendly and open to all who demonstrate the minimum level of reponsibility to their fellow competitors that this kind of activity requires.

I'm sorry if you have had an experience with us that you feel was not positive and enjoyable. I would love to talk to you about that to see what we can do to improve your opinion of us in the future. Conference racing and Chumpcar racing are two completely different forms of motorsports competition and while I would certainly consider participating in either I can also assure you they aren't likely to be sharing a ruleset any time soon.

Good luck with your motorsports future whichever way you decide to go, and I hope to see you at the track.
 
Here we go again...Conference is the greatest, nobody should race anywhere else...blah blah.

Rick - You're calling Dave out here, and you have no idea of his personal circumstances, you're also inferring an awful lot from his posts.
 
Here is the beauty of it all. :We can all speak our peace and be ok with it.

Dave, Hope you stay busy in Conference in some way, and I think you will. Racing is too much in your blood. But should you decide to part ways and go to another venue I will be saddened for Conferences part, but thrilled you are still racing. And THAT is what it is all about. If you can spend time on the track, doing ChumpCar, midgets, Karting, or what-ever, the sport is better for it rather than you getting burned out and honked off at someone and just watching racing on TV. You are not an armchair driver.

You will always have a cold Coors waiting for you in my paddock (disclaimer inserted here: All alcoholic beverages are consumed after all track activities only in approved areas)
 
It doesn't take much inference to read "nobody trying to suck the fun out it", ...on a Conference forum. I'm pretty sure nobody else but Conference puts on any enduros around here, so who do you suppose he is referring to?

Not that I disagree with his premise.

I personally think that NASA does a much better job than "we" do, enduro wise. The success of their enduros is proof enough. When they get 50+ entries, or, 70+ entries as they have in the last several years, they must be doing something right.

"Our" events are well run, but do have their issues. Of course safety should be a principle priority, beyond that I think it's worthwhile to take a look at how things are done. If for some reason the status quo "sucks the fun out of it", maybe we should consider if there are things that can be looked at that may boost interest and attendance.
 
Dave did not say, "You are all a bunch of poop-heads, and I don't wanna play your games anymore."

Those of us that are particularly sensitive, may consider that this a line held in reserve for those that have been soured by SCCA in some way. Get over it.

Dave plays where he wants, like the rest of us. I understand his post to consider this new game that has come to town, and how it might affect our present racing environment. Something that should be considered. Especially since it has established a tow-hold, and will be coming back next year.

Spooky, huh?
 
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"they're always complaining about no "tow-holds". "

That's been one of my pet-peeves, for sure. And we have been afforded far too many opportunities to realize their lack... on, or near an active track with psuedo-controlled traffic... broken wheels... riveted air dams... in the rain... mud... dark...

"I thought if I went one more lap, the problem would clear itself up."

Yup, sure can be annoying.
 
Damn - is that REALLY how my post came across?

I was trying for "I think we do a good job without forgetting to listen to the participants who pay the bills" mixed with equal amounts of "thanks to the volunteers" and "tell me where we went wrong so we can try to make it better for you".

How can that post possibley be interpreted as "We're great and everybody else sucks"?????? Can the disconnect between what I am trying to say and what the reader actually hears possibly be that large????? I need to go back to the drawing board and re-learn written communication all over again, I guess.

Bullet points -
-We are a member driven organization. There is no reason for members to complain about the way we operate, they have the ability to change it from the inside.

-We do things the way we do for a very simple reason. We need to give our drivers and volunteers a compelling reason to give us their money and/or time so we can continue to race without crossing into the realm of behavior risky enough to allow outside forces to end our existence through litigation or legislation. Not always easy to balance for everyone as noted by endless debate right here on the forum.

-I don't discount ANY motorsports event out of hand, regardless of who the sanctioning body or promoter is. I evaluate them on a case by case basis and decide whether I personally would get value out of participating. I have looked at NASA, SCCA, LeMons, Chumpcar, ASA, NASCAR, WMRRA, BMW CCA, PCA, F440, Malibu Grand Prix, Karting, etc and made decisions based on what was best for me at that time whether to participate or not and will continue to in the future. I think there is room for a lot of different organizations especially since their focus is wildly different.

-I was honestly concerned about why he was unhappy, and interested in hearing about it because I am in a position that requires me to evaluate what we are doing right and wrong as a club and use that information to insure that we make our races the best we possibly can to insure our future success.

I am genuinely concerned about the difficulties of guiding a club like IRDC through perilous times of economic and legal challenges. I have been directly involved with marketing engineered products and services for a couple decades now. By CONSTRUCTIVELY airing his concerns about the way we do business, Dave is actually doing Conference a service because most disgruntled "customers" never bother to tell you why they don't buy your product any more - they just stop buying it from you and spend that money elsewhere. It is a sad but true fact that more companies and organizations fail due to indifference than poor financial decision making.

I won't be the guy who let 50 years of volunteer effort and racing history die in the Northwest because we couldn't be bothered to ask the members what they want. I was serious when I said I wanted to know what he thought was wrong with our organization, because whether it is possible to change it for him or not we would be better for having that knowledge.
 
Well, FWIW, Rick, I took it the way you meant it. Since you invited him to take up his concerns with you privately, it didn't strike me as "calling out."
 
I think you guys are taking this ChumpCar event way too seriously. How can it be a threat to ICSCC or for that matter, even SCCA?

It's a once a year event (sorta like the off season Kart events).

Would anyone really want to race "ChumpCars" for a full 13 or 14 race season? I don't think so.

I view ChumpCar about like 24hr du LeMons. An oddity event that's just for 'fun' once a year with ChumpCar being closer to home.

AND because of its very nature MUCH easier to run then a typical ICSCC weekend with multiple run groups and classes. How smooth would an ICSCC weekend be if we only ran Group 3 for the weekend? Hmm, that sounds pretty good actually :D
 
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Considering the Chump Car series was founded by one of founders of the LeMons, then the similarity is natural. Unfortunately, so much emphasis has been put on catering to the same 'market' that fills the grid at the THill 25hr event, that we may be losing sight of the traditional style of the Cascade endurance event as it is displaced as the local sports car club 'fun run' event at the end of the year, and continues to morph into a marketing tool for the Enduro crowd.

An unpopular perspective, no doubt.
 
Wow... the season ends and everybody gets crabby.

For some people, the enduro(s) are still "fun runs." They're also competetive. So what? How's that bad?

And I'm completely at sea with the "marketing tool for the Enduro crowd" comment.
 
If I understood what it is you're saying Ken, I might be able to decide it's popularity potential.

What is the traditional Cascade enduro?
 
Tradition Does as Tradition Was

Once upon an enduro season...

CSCC and SCCBC's enduros were one to two weeks apart, and that, with only a brief rest-bit from the end of the ICSCC season. The CSCC had a 6 hr, and then SCCBC had a 7 hr. @ WESTWOOD.

I never got up there for one of those, but I hear that they were pretty whooopin', too.

Anyway... If it isn't obvious, both clubs were cooperating to keep their traveling bands of local enduro enthusiasts banding to travel to both shows.

Then the woods died. An unfortunate circumstance that gave some credence to increasing the time for the CSCC event. This seemed a natural thing, and introduce some more 'dark' time for the drivers. Entrys? Not a problem. So 8 hrs was a success for a couple, some years. Did we do a 10 anywhere? But things being as things become it wasn't 'enough'.

12 hrs, please. :eek:

"Yes, sure, thank you sir, may I have another." Lets throw in some fuel towers, and attract some REAL attention. Especially when they all hear about our dazzling full service 'curb side' race vehicle recovery team.

We validate parking too.

It has been a very long, but happy season for most of us, I think. The economy is kickin' everybody's dog. And nobody wants to be the one that doesn't recognize that people will spend whatever it is that they decide to commit to our great sport. Considering these new, and real changes, it's time to keep as much focus on the 'relative' fun factor that flavored that participation initially.

We all want it. We all know how to get it. We just need to remember where we've left it sometimes.

I think that a 24 hr @ ORP would be a real gasssss (in the grass).

Robby? George? Dick? Wes? Check my history essay, will ya?

If it there are insults that may be considered unintentional, please consider them. :p

Thanks, Steve. FWIW.
 
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