mikeblaszczak
Well-known member
Scott Adare, the ICSCC Insurance Advisor, was exactly the guy that I had asked about grid size.
New Qualifying idea
- Thread starter mikeblaszczak
- Start date
tobybasiliko
doofus
I have come around to really like the idea of the race-per- day schedule.
In a funny way, it could HELP with the potential plethora of proposed meetings
for next season- with so many races, we could adjust the maximum number of points- scoring
races to get a lot of us out a lot of times... for hardly any extra money. A little bit more,
so that the clubs do ok, and a lot more racing means a lot more fun, so what's to hate?
hee
t
ps, ekim, it's funny that you are a junior member of this board...
In a funny way, it could HELP with the potential plethora of proposed meetings
for next season- with so many races, we could adjust the maximum number of points- scoring
races to get a lot of us out a lot of times... for hardly any extra money. A little bit more,
so that the clubs do ok, and a lot more racing means a lot more fun, so what's to hate?
hee
t
ps, ekim, it's funny that you are a junior member of this board...
Lance Richert
Well-known member
PRO3's agreement with Toyo Tires allows us to get paid on 2 races per weekend, one on each day. So less qualifying, more racing would be good for our group.
Ken Killam
Fats
Would you suppose that qualifying heat races would qualify, Lance?
MartiniRossi
Active member
The ORBITS-4 (AMB) Can handle the qualifications from all the groups. I would just create one big run group. Any driver that did not pit out would be deleted from the qualifying data base.
Based on the data I have, 5-7 laps would be fine.
I like the idea!
Michael
Based on the data I have, 5-7 laps would be fine.
I like the idea!
Michael
clintonracing
something witty
This is an interesting discussion.
Just to put another idea out there (Just offering an idea.. doesn't mean I don't like what else has been put out already or that I think my idea is better).
What about using Saturday for an "open" type qualifying that is being tossed around here in the AM. Then Saturday afternoon have 15 minute sprint race for each group. Points would only be worth 1/2 as much and the sprint race would set the qualifying grid positions for the Sunday main race.
Sunday AM would be an "open" type practice session and then an extended 40 min race.
Correct me if I am wrong... but this is pretty much how OR SCCA does things isn't it?
The schedule would look something like this
Saturday:
0900 - 0945: These Cars Qual
0950 - 1035: Those Cars Qual
1040 - 1125: O/W cars Qual
1130 - 1150: NCW session 1
1150 - 1245: Lunch, driver's meeting
1250 - 1310: NCW session 2
1315 - 1330: G1 sprint race
1335 - 1350: G2 sprint race
1355 - 1410: G3 sprint race
1415 - 1430: G4 sprint race
1435 - 1450: G5 sprint race
1455 - 1510: G6 sprint race
1515 - 1545: NCW race
Sunday:
0900 - 0955: These Cars Prac
1000 - 1055: Those Cars Prac
1100 - 1155: O/W cars Qual
1155 - 1255: Lunch, driver's meeting
1300 - 1340: G1 main race
1345 - 1425: G2 main race
1430 - 1510: G3 main race
1515 - 1555: G4 main race
1600 - 1640: G5 main race
1645 - 1725: G6 main race
Down sides
- If your car isn't running right on Saturday, you don't have a chance to qualify on Sunday
- Still have to figure out the logistics of multiple drivers of the same car (Driver A in G1, Driver B in G4) - Swapping transponders, t/s, etc.
- Logistics of the same driver in the same car running multiple classes (would their best Qual time count for both race groups?)
I'm sure there are other things I am missing...
But what do you guys think about just the overall concept?
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westipton
Well-known member
This runs, or is tending to lean toward the discussions held on this forum a couple times over the past few years. More seat time, and less standing around is my goal for sure, and it is high time we make these changes. The previous threads had more to do with splitting the groups up over the 2 days, or changing the format by eliminating practice and having more racing, so this idea is pointed in the right direction.
Short practices are meaningless as we all know, and doing 2 qualifying sessions is not very popular or logical either. Sovren has great success with their qual/race each day format, and the drivers there love it.
I'd vote for a long Q session and a 20 minute race each day as long as it results in more seat time per day. The 25 minutes, (or less), at PR makes Saturday an expensive waste of time IMHO.
Doing only 5 to 7 laps and then being waved off would result in less track time, so that won't work. Each group would need to be able to use the entire time to run, tweak and run, which would be a luxury that few of us rarely experience. Anything less than 20 minutes for a race would be very hard to sell to guys who are used to 30, but 20 is used in many other organizations with great success.
Great idea Mike!
Short practices are meaningless as we all know, and doing 2 qualifying sessions is not very popular or logical either. Sovren has great success with their qual/race each day format, and the drivers there love it.
I'd vote for a long Q session and a 20 minute race each day as long as it results in more seat time per day. The 25 minutes, (or less), at PR makes Saturday an expensive waste of time IMHO.
Doing only 5 to 7 laps and then being waved off would result in less track time, so that won't work. Each group would need to be able to use the entire time to run, tweak and run, which would be a luxury that few of us rarely experience. Anything less than 20 minutes for a race would be very hard to sell to guys who are used to 30, but 20 is used in many other organizations with great success.
Great idea Mike!
Ken Killam
Fats
Is anybody else interested in finding out what official ICSCC sanctioned car/mile ratio/equation may/must/shall be used?
Spill it, ekiM.
Spill it, ekiM.
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Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
As we are following SCCA's lead on track certification, one might assume we would abide by their rules on cars allowed on track. That is, 25 cars per mile of track.
FIA is MUCH more stringent. However, based upon my calculations from a while back concerning Portland and Pacific, I don't believe any of our run groups are exceeding even the FIA limits (but a couple are close).
P.S.
Under FIA AND I believe SCCA, 120% of the race STARTING field are allowed on track during practice and qual.
westipton
Well-known member
Agreed Rich. If SCCA could run 120 of us on a 4 mile track then we can certainly accomodate 56+ at PR and 50+ at PIR. Well, actaully we run over 55 cars quite often no matter which Conference track it happens to be, so apparently that is not an issue. Shhh, the less conversation about this the better...
Norm Smith
Well-known member
I would love to see us race both Saturdays and Sundays. As Legends drivers we are at a disadvantage up here trying to compete for our world points championships. This is just selfishness on our part of course and has nothing to do with ICSCC.... We have to travel to more race weekends than most other drivers as they are driving in NASA or other Legends sanctioned events that always run 2 races per weekend. WE end up having to travel to California for at least 2 weekends per year and run NASA to get our minimum races in for the championships. We would rather just run conference all year
Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
Wow, this thread has gone beyond the concept of a change in qual. format and back to the 2 race weekend idea.
Last years discussion of that concept was actually triggered by the ROD people ASKING us to seek out ways to reduce their travel and expense requirements to support our races. MANY schedule ideas were posted and there was a way to accomplish it quite nicely. BUT, club rules would need to be changed to allow it.
THe hurdle was two fold. First, keeping the novice program in tact as it is required Saturdays Championship race to be reduced to 20 minutes instead of 30 (rule change needed). Second the requirements for a Championship race weekend including practice and qual sessions are spelled out in the rules (rule changes needed).
During that time, there was LITTLE support for the idea. But now that everyone is experiencing budget strains that weren't there last year perhaps more support exists for such an idea.
Right now, if ORP were on line for this year, we'd be traveling 11 weekends a year. Keeping it at a 14 race Championship season and all weekends being doubles, that travel could be cut to 7 weekends a year (not including Enduro's). Each drivers track time would be 'nearly' the same. For those who want MORE track time per year perhaps fill in the schedule with a couple of lapping days on the weekends by each club?
Obviously, as this has probably NOT been submitted this year as a rules change, we're looking at the 2011 season for any movement in this direction. Even to give a club the OPTION of trying this type of schedule for a weekend race requres a rules change.
Last years discussion of that concept was actually triggered by the ROD people ASKING us to seek out ways to reduce their travel and expense requirements to support our races. MANY schedule ideas were posted and there was a way to accomplish it quite nicely. BUT, club rules would need to be changed to allow it.
THe hurdle was two fold. First, keeping the novice program in tact as it is required Saturdays Championship race to be reduced to 20 minutes instead of 30 (rule change needed). Second the requirements for a Championship race weekend including practice and qual sessions are spelled out in the rules (rule changes needed).
During that time, there was LITTLE support for the idea. But now that everyone is experiencing budget strains that weren't there last year perhaps more support exists for such an idea.
Right now, if ORP were on line for this year, we'd be traveling 11 weekends a year. Keeping it at a 14 race Championship season and all weekends being doubles, that travel could be cut to 7 weekends a year (not including Enduro's). Each drivers track time would be 'nearly' the same. For those who want MORE track time per year perhaps fill in the schedule with a couple of lapping days on the weekends by each club?
Obviously, as this has probably NOT been submitted this year as a rules change, we're looking at the 2011 season for any movement in this direction. Even to give a club the OPTION of trying this type of schedule for a weekend race requres a rules change.
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westipton
Well-known member
That's the rub in all of this Rich, cutting the number of races in half. That takes away from the clubs who host these events, and that sure is not popular!
That's why the 2 day format was interesting to me, with rotating groups and a bye race or two for each group during the year to cut down on the number of events needed to attend.
A good start to this would be the qual/race each day format, but a group of us will have to gather and write this up for submittal next year for it to move forward. I do recall myself and a few others mentioning the economy and lack of dollars eventually affecting our racing, and now it's here. Next year could be worse yet I fear...
That's why the 2 day format was interesting to me, with rotating groups and a bye race or two for each group during the year to cut down on the number of events needed to attend.
A good start to this would be the qual/race each day format, but a group of us will have to gather and write this up for submittal next year for it to move forward. I do recall myself and a few others mentioning the economy and lack of dollars eventually affecting our racing, and now it's here. Next year could be worse yet I fear...
Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
Is this the concept of a split weekend where 3 groups run all day Saturday and then the remaining groups run on Sunday?
Ouch! That's a good idea if ALL the races were at your home track. But towing to Portland, Mission, Spokane or ORP and setting up the paddock space to run ONE day then pack up doesn't sound too sweet
After we get there, it's nice to have some relaxation along with the racing rather then a one day 'panic' session. Would make racing sorta like a lapping day
with only partial paddock setup. Of course it would mean less 'stuff' to transport too.That also doesn't reduce the travel stress on the ROD folks.
westipton
Well-known member
That was the idea Rich, and actually a number of workers didn't like it because they felt it would effect the ambience between workers and drivers for the Saturday night BBQ's!
The reality is we have a fair number of competitors who can't devote both days of a race week-end due to family, work or religious issues. So for them, and many others, it would be good to be able to prac/qual/race on a given day and then head home. I believe most drivers would stay over and run a second group on Sunday since almost everyone currently has that opportunity.
Having said that, I think the prac/qual/race format for each day with combined qualifying would be very doable and would make our races a hell of a lot interesting for drivers - and everyone else. Combining the 6 groups into 3 for Q would give each group a big chunk of time for the 'run and tweak' that has already been discussed. So maybe 15 minutes of AM practice, a block of at least 40 minutes for Q and a 20 minute race each day would offer 75 minutes, or 2 hours and 15 for the week-end.
That's a good hour or more of track time compared to our present format. Being in the car 3 times a day keeps you on your toes and eliminates the huge, and boring, current downtime between sessions. As I mentioned, and as you well know, Sovren uses that foramt, as does CACC in Mission. We're going up there next week-end for a CFDA event within CACC, and we will get 3 sessions each day for at 100+ minutes over the 2 days.
If some drivers can't do the entire week-end they will at least gather points on the day that they are there. That second needless Q on Sunday goes away, and we get to race twice. Seems like a win-win for everybody to me.
The reality is we have a fair number of competitors who can't devote both days of a race week-end due to family, work or religious issues. So for them, and many others, it would be good to be able to prac/qual/race on a given day and then head home. I believe most drivers would stay over and run a second group on Sunday since almost everyone currently has that opportunity.
Having said that, I think the prac/qual/race format for each day with combined qualifying would be very doable and would make our races a hell of a lot interesting for drivers - and everyone else. Combining the 6 groups into 3 for Q would give each group a big chunk of time for the 'run and tweak' that has already been discussed. So maybe 15 minutes of AM practice, a block of at least 40 minutes for Q and a 20 minute race each day would offer 75 minutes, or 2 hours and 15 for the week-end.
That's a good hour or more of track time compared to our present format. Being in the car 3 times a day keeps you on your toes and eliminates the huge, and boring, current downtime between sessions. As I mentioned, and as you well know, Sovren uses that foramt, as does CACC in Mission. We're going up there next week-end for a CFDA event within CACC, and we will get 3 sessions each day for at 100+ minutes over the 2 days.
If some drivers can't do the entire week-end they will at least gather points on the day that they are there. That second needless Q on Sunday goes away, and we get to race twice. Seems like a win-win for everybody to me.
Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
Good thought about running 2 groups that are on different days under that format.
Has any one put down on paper a proposed weekend schedule for that format and, how does the novice program fit in to it?
Has any one put down on paper a proposed weekend schedule for that format and, how does the novice program fit in to it?
FWIW, Many moons ago when I had the need to know this info, it did not exist. Not in any ICSCC documentation nor the insurance policies. As far as I could tell it was just urban legend that we adhere to. The 25 car per mile limit does exist in SCCA but they exceed that number all the time if you study their grids at tracks around the nation. And in Canada, they have number that they use but they don't share the formula (ie written documentation) with ICSCC officals.
I would love to see two days two races. More races in a season with less weekends in attendance.
About 10 years ago I went through to rule book top to bottom and submitted rule proposals that would allow a club to choose a two day two race format. You will find a lot push back for the status quo.
Many rules in many sections need to be revised. The rules currently require a practice, two qualifying sessions, and race, all with minimum time allowances. Also, think of the points system, the trophy requirements, the schedule requirements, tech, scales, etc.
The two basic formats that would provide the most seamless transitions with our current schedules is:
1.
Saturday morning practice 10-20 min
Saturday afternoon qualifying 15-25 min
Sunday morning sprint race 15-20 min
Sunday afternoon full race 30 min
Sprint race finishing order sets grid for full race or grid could be set by fast lap within the sprint race.
2.
Saturday morning qualifying 10-20 min
Saturday afternoon sprint race 15-25 min
Sunday morning qualifying 15-20 min
Sunday afternoon full race 30 min
I believe to successfully go to a two day two race schedule would require having a open test day on the Friday proceeding the weekend, either by ICSCC sanction or prebooking with the tracks.
Good luck with this. I'll support any efforts to go to this.
About 10 years ago I went through to rule book top to bottom and submitted rule proposals that would allow a club to choose a two day two race format. You will find a lot push back for the status quo.
Many rules in many sections need to be revised. The rules currently require a practice, two qualifying sessions, and race, all with minimum time allowances. Also, think of the points system, the trophy requirements, the schedule requirements, tech, scales, etc.
The two basic formats that would provide the most seamless transitions with our current schedules is:
1.
Saturday morning practice 10-20 min
Saturday afternoon qualifying 15-25 min
Sunday morning sprint race 15-20 min
Sunday afternoon full race 30 min
Sprint race finishing order sets grid for full race or grid could be set by fast lap within the sprint race.
2.
Saturday morning qualifying 10-20 min
Saturday afternoon sprint race 15-25 min
Sunday morning qualifying 15-20 min
Sunday afternoon full race 30 min
I believe to successfully go to a two day two race schedule would require having a open test day on the Friday proceeding the weekend, either by ICSCC sanction or prebooking with the tracks.
Good luck with this. I'll support any efforts to go to this.
clintonracing
something witty
I really like what you came up with for option 1.