New Qualifying idea

[mikeblaszczak]

I've floated this past a few drivers, and I want to see how much support there is for it at large.

Right now, we have qualifying on a per-group basis. You go out with everyone else in your group, try to set a good time, then come back in. The next group goes out.

This isn't so efficient: it's hard to set a good lap, people game the grid to try to get first (or last, or if they're in the middle, they leave grid really slowly). One accident or track mess ruins qualifying for the whole group. The downtime between groups to stay on schedule ends up being a lot of overhead, particularly when it isn't needed.

What if we considered "pro-style" qualifying sessions?

The first proposal is that a block of time is allocated; say, 90 minutes. Anyone who wants to can go out, run some laps, and set a time. They come back in. Their best time of the whole 90 minute block is recorded as their qualifying time.

A driver who causes a double yellow, or a black flag all, ends up losing times for that session as an incentive to not screw up the session for others.

Another proposal is a similar idea, with a queue. In a 90 minute session, at most 15 cars are on course. If you get to grid and your 16th, then you wait until someone exits. Cars are only allowed five or seven laps, and have to exit. Stay out too long and lose your times.

This way, access to the track is shared and times can be set down with less traffic. I have to do the numbers, but maybe there are more cars, a longer session, a break for cleanup, or something.

But the point is to eliminate the frequent breaks, the requirement to grid and release (and go out in a big bunch) and normalize the crowd that's on the track.

We might split these blocks into three groups: open wheel, fast production cars, and slow production cars.

What do ya'll think?

 

[Steve Adams]

I'm not sure I agree with all of the details you've described, but I like both ideas conceptually. The downstream possibilities are kind of interesting, too.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

Very interesting concept.

1.
I would assume when a car pulls 'in' after a 5 to 7 lap run, they could pull in to the hot pits and get back in line?

That could increase the amount of 'activity' in the hot pits with chassis changes, tire temp readings and other 'stuff'.

2.
The FIRST question to be answered is; With the way timing and scoring is set up, can they and the AMB data base properly handle mixed run Group cars out on the track for qualification at the same time and properly sort the results without a major work load increase?

3.
If it were broken in to 3 basic "groups" for extended qual. would I be correct in guessing Groups 1/4, 2/5 and 3/6 would be about the breakdown?

With a limit of 15 cars on the track at the same time AND with a limit of 5 to 7 laps per run, some of those groups will have drivers getting mulitple runs while others may only get one (maybe 2) runs in during a single 90 minute session. IF this results in drivers having reduced total track time per weekend, I don't think it will fly

4.
A system such as this may actually help with the time crunch at Pacific. Not sure.

5.
As was discussed last year (looking at ways to cut down the amount of travel per year for workers and racers) I do think spending 5.5 hours on qualifying (as we will at the Dorrnbecker) is somewhat of a waste of time. IF this would result in a single qual session on Saturday and TWO races on Sundays, that would be a good thing '

6A.
Only being a crew chief, none of the above matters... Just voicing opinions as one who has to work within whatever system is in effect

 

[tom_olsson]

Certainly sounds really interesting. When we were up in Edmonton we saw that type of quali at work for the IRL. Certainly seemed great, but then the grid is something like 25 cars. It would be nice to have a chance to decide the car needs an adjustment, make it, and go back out. Right now, the car's got to be right, because there isn't much time to come in & change something. And I know I've had qualifying sessions where I've never gotten a clean lap, but then that is part of the game.

 

[eric_krause]

I like the concept of less but longer sessions, but if you are not qualifying per group what happens with cars running multiple groups? What if the car is running classes with different min weights or tire rules? Or the same car but different drivers per group? It seems this concept could more easily be applied to practice sessions.

 

[mikeblaszczak]

I think your question is related to Richard's, Eric. If we break down the sessions the right way, "also-run" classes are in separate sessions. I haven't gone through on paper to see if that works out, but the idea would be that your presence in Session 1 or Session 2 would determine if you're doing one class or the other. We also might pay attention to the "primary" and "secondary" entries, which are already specified on your entry form. Session 1 might be the qualifying time for your primary entry class, and Session 2 might be the qualifying time for your secondary entry.

I think it's obvious that this approach means changes for timing and scoring. We'd have to publish, for example, qualifying results every 15 minutes or half hour so that, during the session, you could see where you're at.

The intent is, indeed, to help the qualifying crunches at tracks with hard stops, like Pacific Raceways. If we can do that, then we can let the clubs run the profitable special races, keep the core drivers happy, and totally win.

If it makes the afternoon easier or shorter on longer weekends, that helps too. Doernbecher is a good example: the last race group ends at 615 on Sunday night--and that's if everything is on time. I'm sure everyone would rather be able to start driving home a little sooner than that.

 

[mikecolangelo]

I like the second option: 15 cars on track and each get 5-7 laps, with cars waiting in queue at the pre-grid area.

This is based on my experience running in Groups 2 and 5 (both tend to be large groups) and only being able to get a good, clean lap in about 1 out of 4 qualifying sessions.

 

[rick_bostrom]

I think with a little refinement this could be a great idea.

A group of us (you know who EKIM) were sitting around talking about the idea this week-end at Portland and one who shall remain nameless suggested a block quali as described, then the rest of the time for four lap trophy dashes - mini races if you will. With a few laps of quali and the ability to come in and adjust and get back in line on Saturday, it really combines all of the benefits of practice AND qualifying, so Sunday is left for just RACIN'!

 

[Randy Blaylock]

I like the idea, but would prefer less cars on the track at one time and less laps on the track. Something like 5 cars at once, and 5 timed laps maximum per class, then you're done, no going back out. It is qualifying after all, if you can't put together a good lap with 5 tries, well... If you need to work on suspension or something, do a test day. I know it can work because I haven't turned a lap on a Saturday yet this year, and go out for qualifying Sunday morning with the car I unloaded straight out of the trailer.

The time should be allocated according to a simple ratio of car counts of open wheel and closed wheel entries.

I also like the idea of figuring out a way to do more races in less race weekends. It really makes sense to qualify and race each day of an ordinary two day race weekend. Practice is a luxury that is no longer a good use of the time. The sessions are so short anyway as to be practically useless for properly testing any changes, and the near complete lack of any activity on the hot pit lane supports the assertion that hardly anybody uses the practice sessions this way anyway.

We could have a 14 race season in 7 weekends, saving a considerable amount of money in travel/accomodations/food/etc.. expenses, and also free up some weekends over the year to spend time with the family.

There should be no increase in overall expense to run a 2 day weekend double race weekend, the track rental fee is the same, it's just a simple label change on the time. The net result is racing costs half as much!

 

[blandt]

I like the idea of having two races and qualifying sessions a weekend. Since there is not as many open wheel cars it is much easier to get a clean lap. The idea of limiting the cars on the track and having have five laps could make it easier for everyone to get some clean laps.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

..... Practice is a luxury that is no longer a good use of the time. The sessions are so short anyway as to be practically useless for properly testing any changes, and the near complete lack of any activity on the hot pit lane supports the assertion that hardly anybody uses the practice sessions this way anyway

That is indeed a FACT. With 10 minutes of 'practice' at Pacific and even the 20 minutes at Portland, you cannot possibly make changes and go out again to see the effect. All the Practice session is for these days is making sure the car will indeed run. Any changes the may be deemed necessary don't get tested until the 1st qual. run. Not a good time to be finding out if the change was right or wrong.

Although ANY track time is FUN for the driver, I even suggested to Jeff that he run 2 groups at the Car Tender Challenge (which he chose not to do). Mainly because between the 10 minute Practice and 15 minute qualification sessions on Saturday, it was hardly worth taking the car off the trailer for 25 minutes total track time (from a crew stand point) That is a BIG difference compared to the 40 minutes on Saturday in Portland and of course that was caused by the Special Race at Pacific which I fully support and know are needed on occasion.

BUT, if your qualification group (extended ones with 5 to 7 lap limit) has a LARGE bunch of cars, and you can only do one run due to field size, your 'hot lap' track time may end up being 8 to 9 minutes per qual session. If you cannot get several runs in per session or, something else is added/modified to increase track time per driver this could be a negative.

Any changes/restrictions that reduce the per driver track time available below 90 minutes total for the 2 days (at Portland) hurts not only the $ value of the weekend to the drivers but over the long run could hurt Conference racing as a whole.

 

[mikeblaszczak]

That is a BIG difference compared to the 40 minutes on Saturday in Portland and of course that was caused by the Special Race at Pacific which I fully support and know are needed on occasion.

Even without a special race, the schedule at PR is pretty tough because of the hard stop imposed by the drags and the conditional use permit.

I think the plan could mean that we abolish practice, and just make the practices super long. The idea is that you can go out with a weak setup, but still get a time for your qualifying. Then, do a tweak or two, go back up, set your laps, and so on.

Say it's something like this:

0900 - 0955: These Cars
1000 - 1055: Those Cars
1100 - 1155: O/W cars
1200 - 1255: Lunch, driver's meeting
1300 - 1325: Those Cars
1330 - 1455: Those Cars
1500 - 1630: O/W cars

That's 85 minutes in the afternoon, just for one session -- add 55 minutes from the morning, and you've got plenty of time to set your time, make tweaks, take a break, and so on. And a 1630 stop is still 30 minutes earlier than we have now, usually.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

Ahh.. so with your thoughts, ALL day Saturday would be "Qualifying" with each group getting a 55 minute session and then a 30 minute session in the afternoon? That would allow some 'real' tuning during the sessions for sure.

However, that doesn't account for the time required for NOVICE program

Assuming some changes to a similar schedule could be tweeked to fit the Novice's in, what would Sunday be. Warm-up race or, 2 races?

We played with a huge bunch of schedule options on a thread here some time ago that would allow for a 2 race weekend in 2 days. But there wasn't a lot of WHOOPY generated to support such a rules change. THAT thread was 'sorta' started at the request of the ROD people looking for ways to reduce their number of weekends away from home.

 

[Mark Estes]

I would be all for two races per weekend and less weekends away, combine that with some sort of open qualifying sessions like Mike is suggesting sounds like a great idea.

Less weekends away would be better for the volunteers and ROD officials, would save all of us money and time.

Practices can be left for the track days and HPDE events that various organizations put on. Some even have open tracks where you go out at your leisure put in as many laps as you want come in, make adjustments go back out. I'm not sure about all the other tracks but at Portland, many of the clubs allow a special group for race prepared cars. There doesn't seem to be any lack of available track time if it's wanted.

I say the "RACE is it" practice and qualify are just means to the end, the RACE. Lets have more races, some sort of open Qualify sessions where you go out 3-4 laps max, go back into pits or hotpit make adjustments get back in line.

And get Two races per weekend.

 

[Scott Norton]

Great idea!

I like the idea, but would prefer less cars on the track at one time and less laps on the track. Something like 5 cars at once, and 5 timed laps maximum per class, then you're done, no going back out. It is qualifying after all, if you can't put together a good lap with 5 tries, well... If you need to work on suspension or something, do a test day. I know it can work because I haven't turned a lap on a Saturday yet this year, and go out for qualifying Sunday morning with the car I unloaded straight out of the trailer.

The time should be allocated according to a simple ratio of car counts of open wheel and closed wheel entries.

I also like the idea of figuring out a way to do more races in less race weekends. It really makes sense to qualify and race each day of an ordinary two day race weekend. Practice is a luxury that is no longer a good use of the time. The sessions are so short anyway as to be practically useless for properly testing any changes, and the near complete lack of any activity on the hot pit lane supports the assertion that hardly anybody uses the practice sessions this way anyway.

We could have a 14 race season in 7 weekends, saving a considerable amount of money in travel/accomodations/food/etc.. expenses, and also free up some weekends over the year to spend time with the family.

There should be no increase in overall expense to run a 2 day weekend double race weekend, the track rental fee is the same, it's just a simple label change on the time. The net result is racing costs half as much!

I like it! 15 min session on Saturday morning just really is a warm up make sure the car works and that could happen if it was called qualifying also. Usually my fastest lap is 3-6, although in races it is in the last 5 mins usually.

Have two races per weekend for one travel expense would have a big effect on my ability to race more often. Although it would not effect the racing every two weeks that impacts me personally the biggest. But that is a function of the scheduling which is not ours as a club(s) to freely change due to imposed constraints out of our control.

I would gladly give up practice and go straight off the trailer to qualify if meant two race weekends for the entry/travel expenses.

Spend time with the family? What?
I thought Conferance was my family?

Oh sorry honey.. Come to the track more often (She would if we raced both days) then I could spend more time at home painting crown moulding/Chair rails, worrying about that that pencil erasher sized stain on the carpet on the stairs and all those other really important things at home that bother you.


Of course your opinion may vary, and this is just mine

 

[rick_bostrom]

Just to clear up a point above - Saturday practices have always been short at Pacific due to time limitations that are imposed by the track itself. Because of very low OW novice turnouts, the clubs replace a portion of the time that was taken by Novice OW on selected race week-ends with a Special Race. Any time that is left over is allocated to expanding the schedule to allow the volunteers enough time to just barely get the track and timing ready for the next group.

Special races come at ZERO impact to the racing time of other groups! The open wheel novices have been relocated to an actual open wheel race group where the OW veterans have been very gracious about both watching out for them and mentoring them. We owe those novices and senior drivers for the ability to put a special race in what was OW Novice time. We struggle to make sure we don't lose any of the very precious time at IRDC events for the drivers of Conference. Pacific is just a very tight schedule.

 

[mikecolangelo]

I really like the idea of racing on both days. That's the way NASA does it. A fallout of this is that not everyone will attend both days, but I bet most drivers will. Overall, you might end up with more drivers per race weekend than is currently the case. Not everyone can get both days off...you know the story.

 

[the_driver]

its very interesting before i make a decision one way or the other i would like to see what would happen if a group reached the safe track limit and what the aprox time/ atemps i would have at qualifying. just had a thought how would you put a race on if more then a safe amount in the group showed up the qualifying now becomes easy because there is a small limit of cars out at one time but who goes home for the race? since every group has more then one class. how do we do it now?

 

[mikeblaszczak]

The safe track limit is a bit of a myth. Some tracks have them and some don't; it depends on what sactioning body certified the track and how the insurance company wrote up the event policy.

At tracks where there is such a limit, a few things can be done. One is to split classes into different run groups to balance the limit. Another is to refuse drivers who are entering a class in that run group as their secondary entry -- then refund their secondary entry fee. A third is to ask for volunteers to DNS -- and refund those guys.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

The safe track limit is a bit of a myth. Some tracks have them and some don't; it depends on what sactioning body certified the track and how the insurance company wrote up the event policy.

Yup. Basically 2 different 'track limits'.

1.
FIA has a specific formula for calculating the number of cars allowed on track for a race. It's based on style of car, engine displacement and length of the race. In practice the FIA rule is, 120% more cars allowed on track then will actually start the race.

Somewhere on the Forum (here) I've done those calculations for both Portland and Pacfic but I don't recall the numbers off hand.

2.
Much to my surprise, the SCCA still goes by their 'old' formula of 25 cars per mile of track. Which is why the 100 car FF grids at Road America (4+ miles) were perfectly legal grids.