ITX regs?

[rick_bostrom]

Hey Scott - whats the redline on that thing? I can get behind and push in Group 1 but you might want to push in the clutch or you might over-rev! hehe

Thaks Schwank - I never mean to get anybody upset, I just like to yak about racing. Just ask all my racing friends, I am quiet and never have an opinion on anything. Really.

 

[Scott Haynes]

It will rev to 8000rpm and I have a spare. Might fun to hear for a short time spinning it's guts out. I said short time..

 

[Lynn Rimmer]

"I am quiet and never have an opinion on anything. Really"

OK, where is Rick Bostrom and what did you with him???? lol

 

[colin_koehler]

I do, on the other had, sign the contracts for the rental of Pacific Raceways and review the budget every month for the purposes of holding IRDC races ........ FYI.

Well then you should know better, shouldn't you? :tongue:

My point was that if you want to race in two groups a week-end and be front line competitive in both, maybe everyone else would like that opportunity as well. Problem is that no matter how you shift, change, recombine, and revise - somebody ends up uncompetitive, or loses their class, or is just unhappy.

Ok, all joking aside. ITX isn't a subject of "competition" or "running up front", the POINT is to include more "like" cars that already want to run together.

I've run my second run group in classes; EP/FP/H4/ITX... For me all of this is a non-issue. My father, on the other hand, co-drives my car and his primary run group is 2. He has the same desire to race with other in-class as I do and if there's a bunch of drivers in group 1 that want to go play in group 2, why should they be denied? (rhetorical because you answered that question below):

One thing is true if you look at the health of Conference as a whole - you have to be very careful about making individuals or subgroups happy if it makes the majority unhappy. Almost everything we do, regardless of how well intentioned it might have been is virtually guaranteed to make SOMEBODY unhappy.

This is why including the BMW's (325e), the Nissans, the Neons, SSB and SSC cars in group 2 may or may not upset the dominant party in Group 2 which are the Miatas. This was my concern with ITS but I'm still willing to give it a shot.

It would never fly because a decent percentage of the folks racing in Conference are looking to modify their class to fit their car to be competitive rather than modifying their car to fit their class to be competitive. No one should take that as an insult.

I'm not insulted. However, I also don't think it's true in our groups because I simply haven't witnessed it, in fact, usually the discussion around rule changes is to try to reign in overall spending so being competitive doesn't cost an arm and leg. Also, the creation of ITX would actually make me less competitive in Group 2. Right now there's very few entries in EP and H4 (G2) but with ITX the possibility of finishing 1st or 2nd is substantially reduced with the likes of the Nissans, the Neons, and Bimmers. If we added the ITS cars to ITX that would make us even LESS competitive. You see, the point is really based around finding the right seat on the bus, not trying manipulate the system to run up front.

I would like to re-emphasize my point by quoting Scott:

I just want someplace I can run "with" other cars. I don't care at all if I win.

And that, is the whole point of ITX.

 

[rick_bostrom]

I hate to have to say this, becasue I don't want to put myself in a position where you feel that I am somehow against you, because I don't even know you - but I have heard from people I know well that you are a good guy with a lot of enthusiasm for racing. If that is the whole point of ITX, then it is based on ... nothing you can't get in ANY group. You can run "with" the other cars you want to race with in ANY group provided you don't care if you win because I would argue that any car that is legal in Group 2 can find a way to race in any of the four closed wheel groups. All you have to do is get all of the people you want to race with to sign up for any chosen group and/or class and go race together. Don't get me wrong - I was at the E-board meeting and had a discussion with Rick Delamare and Michael Conatore about the best way to get the class in. I'm happy to try to work towards anything that helps racers get the most enjoyment possible and keep the sport strong and our events well attended. I'm happy that you have gotten a class you like and in the end it will be a success or failure completely based on whether enough people vote with their entries to make it a championship class next year. That is where the rubber really meets the road and it will succeed or fail completely on it's own merits. If you like the class as presented, then I wish you the best on making numbers and racing as a full fledged class next year.

My main reservation about the class is if we could have taken ALL of ITA and somehow mirrored it into Group 2 that would have been better. ITX ended up not serving as many racers as we would have liked because most of cars in the huge ITA class are actually underprepared second entries already entered in their primary class in Group 2. It would be like creating SMX, CSMX, Pro7X, and Pro3X classes in Group 5. You would mostly just be pulling cars out of ITA and EIP and putting different letters on the side, but not really changing entry totals or car counts much.

Competitiveness is fleeting. Cars that dominated classes are suddenly also rans through the introduction of a new model, the ravages of time, or the mere stroke of the rulemakers pen. One year's strong class or group is suddenly fighting to survive or having a new dominant group dumped in to revitalize it and make use of the precious track time. I have never yet dragged my car to a race that I haven't entered in two groups. I just love being in the car and all the sensations that go with competing in large groups. I've been in a lot of races - but how many have been an actual great race with a competitor? Most of the time you drive away from him or he drives away from you and you find your place in the field somewhere trying to close the gap ahead without letting the gap behind shrink until the checkered flag waves. But then, every so often but not often enough, there are those races where you and a competitor - heck he might not even be in your class - find each other and battle it out for lap after lap. Trying to get him to drive his mirrors, trying to pop out and force him to make a mistake, timing that corner exit just right to get that draft that slingshots you free on the run to the flag. If you think that ITX gives you a better shot at those days, then I can see why you want it.

 

[Turfer]

Rick,

ITX has never been about trying to run at the front of a group. Some of the ITX cars were already there depending on which class they entered, ie EProd, FProd, H4. It actually includes more like cars at similar lap times. Really almost identical lap times. Makes for great racing. Sometimes twice in one weekend.

ITA cars are too fast for Group 2! Really? You mean my ITA car that is 350lbs heavier and minus 10whp than when in EProd trim is too fast for Group 2. I guess E Prod is too quick as well. And since I can run F Prod minus 150lbs, FProd should go as well. And it turns out that Gary Bockman, Ken Sutherland, Jess Heitman, Jeff Clark, Chris Heinrich in SM and CSM regularly beat the "ITA" cars in Group 2. What do you propose we do with them?

I know you have opinions and you are completey entitled to them. Voicing differing opinions is what makes our country and our clubs great. It would just be even better if the leadership of the clubs didn't speak in hyperbole and misinformation. Which honestly is why I have left IRDC for TC.

Cheers,

Rick

 

[the_driver]

i know a place for the 944 cup cars to come play group 4. it will be like pro3 in group 1.
so i am one of the ITA cars that could/can/did run ITX i could turn my ITA car which is about as cheaply built as possible to run EP and i would loose 350 LBS AND run true slicks or FP with just loosing 350 lbs and running the same tires i have now with just going back to stock exhaust manifolds, if you look at the front of ITA in g5 alot are already up in the top 1/3 of the field so running up front they all ready do. i chose to run ITA because the class was big and i enjoyed the wide range of types of cars. i chose my bmw with "E" motor not the "I"(pro3 motor) because i thought it would be fun and fast in the class. and i know of 4 of these cars in the country that get raced and i help build 2 of them and i know there is alot more speed in them.

 

[colin_koehler]

i know of 4 of these cars in the country that get raced and i help build 2 of them and i know there is alot more speed in them.

You scare me when you say things like that. I'm going to have to get really creative in my "budget" racing to continue to run with you guys.

 

[rick_bostrom]

Hmmm .. didn't really predict this topic turning into the catalyst for name calling ands righteous indignation. Clearly I didn't anticipate the depth of feeling on this issue, as I thought we were having a pretty harmless discussion. It is particularly confusing because I have made valid points on both sides of the issue, and my only strong feeling on the matter is that I hope whatever comes out of it makes the most racers happy.

Let me be abundantly clear - I'm pretty damned opinionated, which could also be said of the gross majority of those who post here. I was a pretty strongly opinionated SOB long before I was involved in club leadership of any kind and I will likely continue to be after my eagerly anticipated (by me at least!) retirement from those duties. I strive, imperfectly I am sure, to be fair and respectful to those with differing opinions but I have a tendancy to think out my position pretty carefully so for my beliefs I am unapologetic.

Here's the boilerplate. All opinions stated here are my own personal beliefs and in no way represent the ideas of the individuals or the group at IRDC that work tirelessly and mostly thanklessly to host quality racing opportunities for Conference racers. Anyone that is unable to separate me as an individual from the organization and members that I serve has their own issues to deal with. I am by definition a public figure within the local racing community and since I have chosen a public profile you are free to make whatever comments you wish without risk of slander or libel or even danger of hurting my feelings. Watch how you speak of the IRDC however as we are a democratic member driven organization and our membership seems to be generally happy with the club. If you were a member and you were unhappy, then you have an obligation to gather like-minded people and shape it into something that better serves your needs. If you don't work to make the club into something you like, you have only yourself to blame.

So while we are at it, lets get a few things straight just in case some of the more emotional readers didn't actually read all of the posts above.

I never suggested ITA cars were too fast for Group 2. What I said was ITA cars would be at the top end of what is currently the Group 2 envelope and ITS cars would be several seconds out of the top of the Group 2 envelope. At our last race in Seattle the fastest car in Group 2 ran a 1:43. Fastest ITA car in Group 5 ran a 1:40. Pro3 came about at least in some small degree because the E30 chassis was a ball to drive but basically uncompetitive as a front line ITS car. They are capable of running 1:38s so we would have to assume a real fully prepared ITS car would be faster yet. Yes - I will definitely go on record as stating that in my opinion, ITS cars are outside the speed envelope set up for Group 2. While we are on that subject - if you disagree then our votes cancel each other out because they are worth exactly the same at rulemaking time. Fair enough?

I like the way the Conference rulemaking process works. In addition, I think that the E-Board really gets it and trys to run as professional an operation as they possibly can without letting procedure get in the way of serving member needs. ITX was proposed in the worst possible way. It was scrawled out on a napkin in the crudest of forms, signed by the minimum number of supporters, with no apparent ruleset. The E-Board debated it, heard all sides, and then allowed a number of attempts to better define it as a class before ultimately voting to bring it into being with the idea they were doing their best to serve the request of some number of their members. Their reasoning was that if it made participation numbers to become a championship class then that was the real endorsement. If it doesn't make numbers then it will dissappear because not enough people cared to make it a success - again better than any E-Board vote. If it does make numbers then it is anticipated that those who cared enough to make it a success will also invest some time refining the ruleset and improving the class going forward. My opinion? I think the E-Board made a good decision. It will live or die based on it's own merits, but at least it was given a chance. If it makes some racers happy, then fine by me because happy racers come out and play which is all I'm after. I'm not for or against the class - I am waiting to see if the participants are for or against the class because I really have no dog in the hunt. Am I concerned that other groups will make similar proposals that could complicate classing and scheduling? Sure, but we as racers always find a way to make it work and I'm sure this will be no exception.

Government run health care is the key to eliminating the deficit and driving your car to work kills polar bears. See? My posts do include hyperbole and misinformation.

 

[the_driver]

is ITX a good idea only time will tell. and time may only be this year. i thought it would be a good idea. "I" think our EP should be faster then ITS. the first race at ORP the top 6 ITA were faster then all the ITS cars. it really depends on track which class will be faster some tracks they are even others you get the seconds faster. I also think my e30 in ITA trim would be faster then the PRO3's at alot of tracks but thats my opinion. G2 already has the biggest speed difference thanks to a certain 2 stroke car which is 40+ seconds a lap slower then the front of group 2. if the class makes it good if it doesnt oh well maybe ill come up with an ST junior,a class with a weight to power of 18,19-1 and no aftermarket brakes or aero

 

[Turfer]

My apologies to Rick. Thanks for your last post. I had read your earlier posts as being rather dimmisive and devisive of some of our newer members who were/are having an earnest discussion about class rules. Maybe I am reading too much of your negative feelings for ITX into your postings. I would like to help these newer members take the ball and run with it, whatever direction that takes.

Speed differential in any group is a real issue. I suspect more so in G1 where some of the slower cars are/were making their 2nd entries. A properly prepared and driven ITS car should be 1-2 seconds a lap quicker than an equally prepared and driven ITA car. Currently, ITS and ITA are fairly equal with ITA having the upper hand at most events. But a good example is Portland earlier this year where Ron was 1.2 seconds quicker than me and drove off into the sunset from the drop of green flag. At ORP, 5 ITA cars were quicker and 3 more were within 10ths. The Pacific Raceway data point provided is not valid due to weather. With clean, dry track, 3 ITA cars were 40.7, 40.8, 41.1.

The bigger issue is actually protecting turf. Allowing ITS cars to run in ITX would upset the look at the front of Group 2. This is where the biggest push back will occur. Speed differential is the arguement that will be used. I am not advocating for ITS to be included in ITX nor am I opposed to it. But maybe we need to evolve the class/group or maybe status quo is just fine. It does appear that this class is attracting some interest from newer racers and also from potential entries outside ICSCC.

R

 

[schwank]

As the noisy ITS guy... I totally agree with you guys. A top end ITS car is out of line with Group 2 and ITX. The 944 is a different beast as it is at the slower end of ITS regs, but that is where we currently race as that is the only universal home for us in the PNW region, whether ICSCC or SCCA.

We'll address that by attempting to adopt 944 Cup rules in the future. 44 Cup rules are a sort of umbrella that accept ITS 944's, ITA 924's, and PCA prepped 944's and 931's, using weight and HP/TQ caps as the equalizer. The end result will be cars that can run as 944 Cup may or may not be IT legal, so once we go down that road the ITX discussion is moot anyway.

We can't play in ITX, that is how it is. You won't see any more discussion from me on this one as we have other paths already mapped out for us. But that is for another day and another thread!