It looks like sombody get it!

The club level rules change meeting for IRDC is this coming Weds.

FWIW, I have in fact completed the analysis and produced those changes/proposals for submission.

What I am hopeful for, is that the IRDC voting members will approve the proposals at the club level, so that the ideas can be forwarded/promoted to the collective and discussed by all members objectively.
 
Randy Blaylock said:
The club level rules change meeting for IRDC is this coming Weds.

FWIW, I have in fact completed the analysis and produced those changes/proposals for submission.

What I am hopeful for, is that the IRDC voting members will approve the proposals at the club level, so that the ideas can be forwarded/promoted to the collective and discussed by all members objectively.
Click to expand...

Thank you Randy!!! You have our support ....
 
Sorry this is a little late to the game--my computer died this week.

The upcoming SCCA race could be interesting. We are planning to go, so I can let you know how that works out. I'm not sure how fun it will be, though, as I'm currently the only entry in my class.

Food for thought--be careful about holding SCCA up as an idol. Their entry lists are dismal compared to ours. So Conference is doing something right. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that I'm not advocating creativity or some judicious changes.

It seems that getting input from those outside the usual forum posters would be a good idea--as this is only a small percentage of the whole driver group. Holding a variety of types of events would give drivers a chance to vote with their time and dollars. I do believe that holding a variety of types of weekends will be a good way to keep the most people happy and probably generate the most revenue for the clubs.

One more thing--I would pose a reason why some of us don't like the idea of fewer weekends.
We understand the concept that it is tiring and our volunteers are overworked. But ... racing is addicting. Our time at the track is a slice of non-reality; it is an escape from the drudgery, bills, politics, arguments, etc. of everyday life. A conference weekend is full of adrenaline, excitement, power, friendly competition; people who are up, happy, excited, helping each other, supporting each other. Hard not to want that.
So, as has been presented, we are reluctant to give this up.

I would present my support, though, of giving up a little bit of our dream in the interest of keeping the dream healthy.
 
"The reason that we have a schedule is so that we may have something to change."~Me.

I'm pretty sure no one on this only slightly exposed forum were holding the SCCA to be a particularly omnipotent body of influence, Karen. But they too are experimenting with different formats and attempting to attract more participation which has been lacking for more than just a couple of seasons now. Still they suffer from many of the same diseases that Conference clubs feel specific to their areas of operation.

But one disease that they do not suffer from is the inability to create a flexible set of rules through which to schedule their events. It doesn't take an SCCA Region an act of Committee Lords to adjust to the local demand. It's unfortunate that the demand is not at optimal levels to help support the club, but ORSCCA is a just another club just like SCCBC, IRDC, CSCC and all. Same passions different book.

But back to flexibility in scheduling... Randy? Are you gonna wait, or share. The danger being of course that releasing too much to be diced, sliced could be discouraging. On the other hand may shed light on some of the color of detail within the frame... work.
 
Hello All

After getting a new password......I am finally back with a few observations.

1. The Novice Program is the reason ICSCC is a stronger organization than SCCA, do not mess with it.

2. There is no need to change the rules for clubs to run multiple Championship Race weekends. In fact 3 of the 5 clubs are currently doing just that. If local track time constraints are an issue run three day events.

3. Driver demographics suggest that they fall into 2 camps, those who are running for the Championship and those that are not. For the last couple of years it has been possible to qualify running only 3 weekends yet we have not seen a significant increase in drivers competing for class championships. No reason to believe having fewer weekends will change this trend. The majority of our racers are local folks running at their local track.......do they want fewer weekends? By running fewer weekends in larger market areas (you know who you are) you run the risk of losing your local racer base to some other group.

4. A couple of outlying clubs rely on multiple race weekends for their existence. At Spokane we have priced our triple so that the cost of entering, towing, racing and getting a place to stay is roughly the same as what an average racer would spend for three home races in the Seattle area. We really cannot reduce our entry fee and stay out of the red. If as suggested each club is limited to 2 weekends and double races are offered for just the head tax.......the number of weekends will go from 11 to 5 or 6 pretty quick because a couple of clubs will not be able to match this price. After all why would you tow all the way to Spokane if you can get a double for 300.00 and stay at home?



Net result fewer weekends less racing


If on the other hand you are like me and all of your bench racing stories are about racing, not practice or qualifying you just make 2 changes.

1. Eliminate the language requiring a practice and 2 qualifying sessions prior to a single 30 minute championship race and replace it with a minimum of 70 minutes of track time per single championship weekend (this includes the race).

2. Add language to require a minimum of 70 minutes of track time for the initial championship race on multi race weekends and 45 minutes of track time for each additional championship race.

Note that this allows all clubs to run exactly the same schedule that they ran in 2012 if they want.

It would allow clubs to run sprint races instead of qualifying.......more racing! Clubs could have their own sprint race champions......a championship for the local drivers, who are the majority, you say?

Here is how we would do it in Spokane

Friday

combined group 1/4, 3/6 and 2/5 warm up

Qualifying by group

Sprint race by group

Saturday

Sprint race qualifyer by group

Championship race by group

Sunday

Championship race by group

Championship race by group

Qualifying grids would be set according to fastest time in previous race.

Yeah that's right under this format running 2 groups you could take 10 green flag race starts. You could also tow in Friday night ( or early Saturday) run the sprint/quali race Saturday morning and then bag 3 or 6 Championship Races before towing home Sunday. I believe this would meet the request for more racing.
 
"One more thing--I would pose a reason why some of us don't like the idea of fewer weekends.
We understand the concept that it is tiring and our volunteers are overworked."

Karen, it is NOT a concept, it is a fact.

The volunteers are at the tracks sometimes 2 hours ahead of the racers. (how many of you have arrived at 6:30 in the morning to help set up the track? How many of you stay after 6pm to help tear down the track?)
We don't have just 4 sessions a weekend (for those with a single run group) to work, we on average have to be alert and on our game for more than 25 sessions non-stop. We put in 10 hour days, on our feet, running from pillar to post, having to ask Race Control to make it a long 5 minute warning so we can just get to the blasted bathroom.

That is fact.

So, yes, things need to be adjusted.

Racing is addictive, yes. Getting in the same amount of championship races/seat time but saving $2000 - $3000 in towing, hotels, etc should be a bit of an incentive. (more funds to spend on the car)
Don't forget a lot of volunteers drive, hotel, eat, etc. on all those weekends too.

We are all in this together and there can be a happy medium reached that benefits all.

OK it's still dark out and now I need to get ready for 3 days of racing at Mission.
 
Gregg, I like the way you put it. Still would like to see where ICSCC charges more $ for calling it a race.

Your 3 & 4 are spot on.
 
Kyle, you've got to look in the ICSCC PPM

3.5.2.5 The Treasurer shall report the number of ICSCC entries and non-ICSCC entries after each race for the purpose of determining the driver-levy amount. The number of Novice upgrades shall also be reported so the number of free races may be determined for billing purposes

Also read sections: 7.2.4 Member Club Racing Sanctioning and Driver Levy Fees, 23.2 SPECIAL EVENTS

and-

24.1.3.4 Driver Levy fees. A $15 per entry (excluding Novice Upgrades and Observation Races) driver levy shall be paid within 15 days of receipt of the ICSCC statement. “Per entry” includes special races. (See Section 7.2.4.3)

Appendix A. 8. Driver Levy
The driver levy payable to ICSCC is as defined in this PPM. The ICSCC driver levy shall not be assessed on non-ICSCC entrants competing in non-ICSCC portions of a jointly sanctioned race.

That's where.
 
Thanks Ken.

So that begs the question of how to charge a reasonable fee for the second or third race during a 2 day
Race Weekend. If it costs each Club $100.00 per race (.60 to .95 cents per driver per race) and $15.00 more per driver for the levy,and the track costs are the same as it is now why is there a charge of about $200.00 more?

That's a healthy profit. How long can that keep going and keep low budget-close to home track people to continue to come out and play and not go do something else.
 
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Kyle

Race pricing is a complex function of actual costs incurred per event plus annual costs of running the clubs applied to the predicted number of entrants in any given market over a period of time. Short answer whatever the market will bear.

So if a club goes to a single and a double format the costs for the weekend will go up first to cover the increase in actual event costs, second to cover annual club expenses, third to account for the increased risk of only having two events (what happens if one of the two goes in the red) and finally because races are a commodity and you will be getting 2 instead of one.

The real risk involved in race pricing is predicting entrants. In a socialist world we would have each entrant pay their entry fee and if the clubs made money you would get a refund, if they did not you would get a bill.......we would all be running spec Lada and Trabant sports racers. Instead the clubs make money on good years, bank it and lose money on bad year and deplete their accounts.....so a modest profit from time to time is not a bad thing.

So with all that blather why did NWMS choose not to raise the entry fee for our triple race enough to even cover the increased cost of the additional race? Because we decided to take the risk that the low price would attract enough additional entries to off set the additional costs
 
So here are some more ideas from the who put this box around the outside of my box.

1. Split the run groups by days. For example groups 1-3 run all 4 of their sessions on Saturday and 4-6 run on Sunday.
- advantage cheaper travel costs for single group entry ( only one night ).
2. Combine 1/4, 2/5, and 3/6 practice/warm up sessions whenever entry levels allow.
- frees up about 45 minutes of track time (shorter days/ additional time for special races)
3. Run practice and quali as usual on Saturday. Sunday morning championship races, Sunday afternoon 6 sprint races with combined groups if numbers allow.
-advantage, more racing
4. Double championship points for one race per season for small market clubs that hold multiple race events
- self serving attempt to get more entries in Spokane
5. Club championships (not ICSCC) determined by combination of points scored in Championship and Sprint races.
- gives everyone a championship to run for.

6. Monetary incentive for entrants that provide race workers. Either as reduced entry fees, rebates or credits toward test and tunes. If we went to the 3 group per day format drivers could work corners on the off day.
- increases the pool of course workers

7. Lose the paradigm that all the practice, qualifying, racing and novice program have to be completed on the first day of a double race. Just run the last 2 races of the first day rotation on the morning of the second day. Sure it means 2 Championship races in one day for a couple of groups or 3 if you are double entered.......
- advantage same amount of racing in 2 days vs 3 days, reduced track rental costs for the clubs, no time off from work to tow on Fridays, fewer days wearing whites and standing in a little shack.

8. Allow clubs to combine groups based on entrant numbers for practice, qualifying and racing and to provide a final schedule to entrants upon sign in at the track
- shorter day for the workers or redistribution of track time for drivers or inclusion of additional sprint races at the end of the day

All of these can be done while at the same time preserving the minimum number of on track sessions and the minimum amount of track time as currently outlined in ICSCC rules. We just need to change a bit of wording and give the member clubs a bit more freedom to fit their races to their market.

With increased freedom comes increased responsibility, meaning each club must make sure who their market is. For example if you have a strong contingency of local racers who are the bread and butter of your program and you are running a healthy novice program, with plenty of workers it may not make sense to try and go to multi race weekends to net a few more traveling racers while decreasing the number of weekends for your local folks and for the novices. If on the other hand you are far from having enough local races to have a program, novices are a rarity and you are 250 miles from your primary market single events are not an option.
 
Lynn,
Using the word "concept" was not meant to disagree with all the times you volunteers have spoken up and told us you are understaffed and overworked. We understand. I'm just trying to pose the background to why we find it so hard to let go of our weekends.
I do understand... The reason we aren't at Mission is not that we don't love Mission (except when it's overcast and raining about 15 minutes of every couple hours....), it's that we are toast. Energy, time and money are done. I'm so far behind on my to-do list it's nearly like the national debt.

Next, Greg Coffin has posted some excellent points. !!!

Especially about driver demographics and how most people seem to race most at their local track. Something to definitely keep in mind.
How about clubs doing what has essentially been posed for the last 5 pages, but in addition, have the choice to take their extra weekend(s) and run non-championship races. I would suggest that this is probably only a good idea for Portland and Seattle/Ridge. And should be done only with the buy-in of the volunteers.

Additionally, how about clubs (again, especially CSCC and IRDC) generating a publicity flyer that gets people interested and excited in coming out to help run the races. Designate a volunteer coordinator, and hand these out to all entrants at the HPDE/schools. We have a huge base of people come through the schools and they probably never realize that they can be involved in racing.
 
"but in addition, have the choice to take their extra weekend(s) and run non-championship races."

The clubs that make up the Conference have always been able to present/promote/organize 'other than Conference' racing events. To do that they simply insure the event without using the ICSCC sanction insurance policies or their entourage of stewards and equipment. There is nothing in the bylaws that impinges that ability. So it probably is smart to keep an open mind with the concerns of losing a good date at a venue as clubs consolidate their allotment of three ICSCC chamionship races. Double DT/HPDEs? Super Training weekends?

As long as they don't directly conflict with their other Conference interests, there are many possibilities. Point--Look at the NASCAR/GASS/PRO3 event at PIR, and the last 20-ish years of grow with the Historics (HMSA) event each year. Some haven't been around long enough to remember "the early days", but it wasn't as pretty and fluffy as it is today.

In fact if CSCC, like any other Sports Car Club of Anywhere wanted to promote a race at the Ridge that had nothing to do with the ICSCC, they are free to spend their money where they like.
 
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The proposals I submitted at the IRDC rules change meeting were passed and forwarded to the Steward for all voting members to consider.

I started a topic over on the Rules Changes section here on this forum to discuss
 
Kenny, non-Conference week-ends have been a dismal failure over the decades, and I doubt that will change much.
The extra week-end will be a waste of time and resources based on history, so it is best to concentrate on the events that will produce revenue.
We won't make this happen based on the proposals submitted this year, but we're getting closer.
 
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