Discussion of sports racers and "sedans" on track simultaneously

Wes, I don't recall any particular incident. At the time we had quite a good number of decent real sports racers. At the time the FVs had there own group but there numbers wer slowly going down. It was as boring to watch 3 vees compete as two Club Fords in OWN. Seemed like a good idea at the time to combine into one group. And of course who could forget the safety issue of racing with all those BIG cars? As you will recall when I first started in F sports racing we ran with group one which was A through J production. You learned quickly how to get around slower cars safely in about 2 laps. At that time we still had the Sports race group open to ANY car based on engine size only. Of course that gave production guys another group/class to run in and as you noted as many as 3 classes/groups to run in.
 
Dammit Wes - now you've gone and made me spend more time on research!

Disclaimer - at least Wes has apparently been in a Legends car, where I have only given them a cursory inspection while I was talking to the great and enthusiastic group of guys who come out to race them with us. The engineer in me simply insists that I examine every Sports Racing car that I happen by with the body off. I will freely admit that I think they are some of the coolest rides at the track.

That being said - I'll air my unsupported opinion first, then the facts. In general, any car that was originally intended for circle track use takes into account that contact WILL happen, not that contact COULD happen. They run in close proximity to other cars and concrete walls full time so they have higher incidents of contact and are designed for that eventuality. Sport Racers are designed with weights, structures, and centers of gravity intended to make them some of the very fastest cars that might show up at the track for a race. They are elegant engineering solutions designed to maximize performance and not designed to be turned around by their competitors out of turn four on the way to the checkered flag. This is not to suggest in any way that SR's are not designed to do all they can to protect their occupants when the unexpected happens. I've taken a close look at Dick Bogg's car and it looks like it has a hellaciously strong tub surrounded by sacrificial structures - but I would still say that the Legends car at least appears to be the better chassis for playing bumper cars in.

The facts:

Legends car - 1300# min with driver

Sports Racer (referencing SCCA GCR as it seems most of our true SRs are at lest nominally based on SCCA "C" and "D" Sports Racers) - Heaviest at approx. 1350# but most between 900# and 1100#.

As I stated before, SR's are certainly longer and significantly lower but I'm not sure that constitutes "bigger" or even how to quantify that term. I am tempted to draw the conclusion that if the Sports Racer encloses more cubic feet and weighs the same or less, it must mean that there is less "heavy stuff" inside the envelope. As to whether that means there is less steel for safety cages or simply that SR's make better use of lightweight engineering materials to achieve the same level of performance and safety would surely be a case by case comparison.

And none of it answers the primary question - do we feel that cars classified as SR's by the ICSCC rulebook can be safely allowed to race with production based cars or not? That decision can't be made on the basis of anyone just liking the idea so they are prepared to ignore the rules. The reason IRDC specifically asked permission was because we understood that running that race didn't only affect us, it affected the viability of Conference through potential liability. We took a look at it and thought it would not be likely to create a substantial risk. We passed it on to the E-Board and the majority disagreed. As a question for Mr. Hanken, if it is your opinion that you would like to see these cars racing against each other perhaps you should talk to your brother (TC's E-board rep) - because I believe he voted against it as well.

IRDC accepted the E-boards decision at face value - they said their decision was based on the idea that running Prod cars and SR's together posed an unacceptable level of risk for Conference. Am I too infer that it is only an unacceptable risk at IRDC races?
 
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Damnit Rick - I'm late for a meeting so I can't get into this right now, but putting aside the technical issues and weights vs. size for now and concentrating on the 'question' is where this needs to go.
SR's do enduros, but not SR Legends. Would a Legend be eligible to run an enduro, and if not does not eliminate the other SR's?
 
"...you should talk to your brother (TC's E-board rep)..."

Scott would be Jeff's Daddy.

But equally not here, nor there is that I watched Bill Murray (GT1-Javelin), Larry Novotny (GT1-Firebird), and Chad (GT1-Mach I Mustang until converted) running ASR in Grp 6 since I started standing around on the turns in the mid to late '80's, so the change has been in for a very long time, since then.

A changing of the time, you think? Perhaps then, rallying these E-Board reps to the cause would be more advantageous than chiding them for their past voting decisions. Especially since the vote could have been based solely on whether, or not, ICSCC should enforce it's own regulations.

Unless you feel that there was some other motivation for those votes.

Gets kinda deep here, yes?
 
SR is an SR by Conference fiat. I think the rules are pretty clear, backed by an E-Board decision. Trying to make a case that somehow an SR/SR isn't the same as a Legend/SR is just obfuscation.

We raced against a Legend at the 25 too. Didn't hit it either.

Let me be perfectly clear - I am IN FAVOR of SR's racing Sedans in the enduros and in other well thought out and carefully planned situations as well. Most of this rant has been about inconsistent application of our ruleset in this matter. Frankly, I'll unapologetically chide officials for their past decisions all I want if I think it will improve future decision making. I would expect them to do the same to me. It's the democratic process.


Ken: Deeper? Sure - we lost potentially 15 to 20 entries for our special race. There is always a monetary cost for regulation. If it is for good reason and the betterment of Conference I'm fine with it. On the other hand, I hope I am quoting this right: "Justice unevenly applied is not Justice at all." My apologies to the Hanken family for incorrectly arranging their lineage. I actually like the heck out of the brothers and wish they were out running more races. They have always been a lot of fun. We drank a LOT of beers together out of some Conference trophies what seems like a long time ago.


Obfuscation is the concealment of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, intentionally ambiguous, and more difficult to interpret.

Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI5Y7Nl2Bic

Wheel entanglement certainly can't be an issue, as a lot of us in Improved Production
(the TR6 in the video) have legal 'fenders' that certainly don't protect the wheels from other cars..

The Legends cars have fenders equal to- or better than- mine, and their center pods are
pretty stout (keeping things out from between their wheels). I'm more likely to lock
tires with someone than they are.
(and you Pro3 guys wonder why us EiP cars don't like racing as closely as you do...)

I've been on- track in my #2200 (with driver) sedan with Legends cars, and while they're
not as easy to see as your car, Rick, they're a darned sight easier than SR's with their
low bodywork.

I too think we should change the rules (next year, I guess) to allow ALL fendered cars
(Legends, SR's, Caterhams, Improved Production, etc) to run with like cars. That DOESN'T necessarily mean
Legends in G1, but it could mean G5. Or G2. Or, heck, NCW. But probably not G4...

t
 
C'mon Randy - someone WILL get sued. It's like people saying they are going to die. As far as I can tell everybody dies, so saying it is going to happen shouldn't be a surprise. Same deal with lawsuits in the modern era - if you live long enough you will get sued.

Death and lawsuits - the question isn't if they will happen, it's when.
 
Obfuscation? I thought for a minute there you were swearing at me in another language!
I too want to see us all race together, and golly gee, I can remember my SCCA days in FV when we ran against Fords and SR's, and never had issues. SR's in enduros are rarely as issue either, so it appears that we (someone) needs to change that ruleset so it's black and white rather than the grey that now exists.
Like they say, "don't take life too seriously cause it's only temporary."
 
I don't know if this is relevant but if some folks from conference would like to spend a few hours going over one of my Legends cars they are in our race shop in Burien. We currently have the engines out of 2 of the cars and have a car lift to get them up in the air for closer inspection. And the offer is a standing one that ANY conference licensed driver who would like to do a few laps in one of my cars at a playday, test day is more than welcome to contact me to set up a little fun. We want everyone who runs with us to be comfortable and we want you to know that we are as dedicated to safety as everyone else. We try to be the leaders in the safety first atitude even though we run sorta close during competitions. If someone within our class is doing something that makes the others uncomfortable we talk about right away. We debrief each race as a group the same day.
 
Wonder what FIA, SFi or the Insurance would have to say about it..

ROFLMAO.....


Oh come-on folks, it was funny fer cryin out loud.....
 
Norm Smith said:
......We want everyone who runs with us to be comfortable and we want you to know that we are as dedicated to safety as everyone else. We try to be the leaders in the safety first atitude even though we run sorta close during competitions.....
Click to expand...

Norm,

Don't take this thread in the wrong way. In fact, it has nothing to do with the safety or on track performance of the Legends. Rather an obfuscated hypothetical multidirectional discussion on the philosophy of sports racers running with sedans in endurance races (which apparently violates some existing and selectively enforced 'old' rule).

The guys who actually run with the Legends on the track have never spoken a bad word about you guys that I know of. Cept for that last race when the FL got tangled in the middle of your group practice and couldn't get out. :) Not a big deal as it ended well.
 
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I second Richard's sentiments - In my experience, Norm and the Legends guys have been a pleasure to work with and a ball to have at our races. They have embraced the Conference ideal of friendly competition and are doing their best to grow their ranks in a fashion similar to the process that has made Pro3 such a popular class. When you open your garages and cars and welcome people into your ranks like family only good things can result. We are just shaking out some minor rules and fairness issues, this is in NO way intended to project any negativity towards the Legends group. We love ya, you keep on growing your group and coming out to play!
 
Legends construction

Norm Smith said:
I don't know if this is relevant but if some folks from conference would like to spend a few hours going over one of my Legends cars they are in our race shop in Burien. We currently have the engines out of 2 of the cars and have a car lift to get them up in the air for closer inspection. And the offer is a standing one that ANY conference licensed driver who would like to do a few laps in one of my cars at a playday, test day is more than welcome to contact me to set up a little fun. We want everyone who runs with us to be comfortable and we want you to know that we are as dedicated to safety as everyone else. We try to be the leaders in the safety first atitude even though we run sorta close during competitions. If someone within our class is doing something that makes the others uncomfortable we talk about right away. We debrief each race as a group the same day.
Click to expand...

Having seen a Legends land on its roof on a few large rocks at Spokane a few years ago, I can atest to the strength of the cage. Had that car had the normal open square of tubing that most full cage sports cars have, the driver would have been seriously injured if not killed outright. The extra bars supporting the roof make the things little tanks. I can't say how they would fair in a heavy side impact, but I expect that they would do fine. My only concern in a side impact is the driver's neck getting stretched enough to have his head come into direct contact with the other car inthe T-bone. Hello, HANS supplier?
 
Speaking of Legends... Hey Norm,

What do these GP600A road racers cost and has anybody in your group tested one?

"Something" like a Thunder Roadster but designed for road racing :)

1500 Lbs and 1300 Yamaya would probably classify it as a C/SR in Conference. So they'd be up against Lee for the Championship!
 
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And when you guy's are done make sure we can still run with the Legends cars... Sorry that was uncalled for. Just need a place to play. "We got the sand, just need the box" Hugs and kisses.. KVD
 
I've never seen on of those GP600A cars. It looks like a modified Thunder Roadster. Very cool. BTW, I don't think anyone is thinking bad about the Legends. I just wanted to throw out the invitation for everyone to come check them out at close range while we had the motors out and a rack to put them up on. I miss my racing already and it's only been a couple of weeks. Can't wait for December in Vegas for the Legends World Finals. 130+ cars in 3 different divisions. How about 40+ cars on the track at the same time? Woo Hoo!
 
I find this all a bit late for discussion but, while competition rules may apply to an enduro, car classifications do not. A legend car is built like a brick outhouse, anyone that did a close inspection of one would sign it off for enduro competition, large production sedans should be the ones looked at if your worried about safety. personnally I'll run my SR with the likes of randy and rick anytime, any mistake would be my fault because if a 400 hp 1000# car cant wait for an opportune moment to overtake well, you get the point. Rick and Randy, just watch out for the spilled bowl of chunky black and silver bits soup Rick says im going to drop. hehe

An enduro should allow any car under 3300 #s or so. no bradleys please.
 
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