Discussion of sports racers and "sedans" on track simultaneously

rick_bostrom

Onda Kattan Racing
[Admin's note: I moved several posts about this subject out of the thread for the Cascade enduro.]

Hmmm .. can't be a sport racer entry can there? Cascade is philosophically opposed to them participating when sedans are present........

(Asbestos undergarments snugged up tight and hunkered down in best "duck and cover" tradition for ensuing ball of flame.)
 
From where do you gleen your intelligence Rick? I have seen no documented evidence that CSCC has anything to do with philosophy.

As for myself, being an active member of a couple of other racing clubs, and having documented much in the way of philosophy, I must say that CSCC is innocent as a collective. Individual members' philosophies, on the other hand, may vary widely when considering the circumstance of perspective, and experience levels.

So pull the other chain, maybe then, it'll flush.

SR has been a class in the CSCC Endurance Race for a very, very long time. Nothing 'special' about that.

If you like, however, I'd be happy to bring the subject up for you at the CSCC BoD meeting next Tuesday evening just to kick around a bit.
 
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Hmmm .. can't be a sport racer entry can there? Cascade is philosophically opposed to them participating when sedans are present........

(Asbestos undergarments snugged up tight and hunkered down in best "duck and cover" tradition for ensuing ball of flame.)

Heck, if I remember right, a sports racer won the thing overall and going away a few years ago. The only problem with sports racers is that they generally tend to break before the end of the race.
 
Well....we have our first Sports Racing team....but, they entered a sedan.

Maybe the Norma will be coming. I'll drop the Foggs a note..... Thanks, Holly
 
I done gleaned my inteligince from my maw and pawp I suppose. But seriously:

I guess the only documentation that I would have of that "philosophy" is that earlier this year Cascade's E Board rep voted against a certain group of E Sports Racers participating in an IRDC special race group involving a split start with Spec Miatas, citing the fear of certain doom from our insurance provider should <horrors> a claim ever have to be filed. Yet another case of "insurance terrors" keeping us all from sleeping at night.

At the time I remember thinking how unusual, and dare I even say hypocritical, it was for the representative of a club that has traditionally run sedans and sport racers together for hours at a time to decide it was too dangerous for any other member club to do so.

As for CSCC as a collective, I have to assume that your duly authorized representative was just presenting the will of his constituency. Isn't that the way this is supposed to work? If that is not true, perhaps the problem is less my perception and more your representative.

Personally? I've raced with Sports Racers in endurance races and not had any problems with them. Everybody needs to be responsible on track and look out for each other and that minimizes the potential problems. My point is simple - either it is acceptably safe to have sedans on a hot track with sports racers or it is not. Why was it too dangerous in August but somehow not in October?

I've pulled the other chain and am waiting with a lifeline if you happen to be circling the drain!
 
That'd be another good reason why the EB votes should be published.

Rick since I'm not a driver I should keep my mouth shut and do as I'm told. But, I don't see how Legends are sports racers they're fendered. I'm glad they have a home in Group 6 and certainly there isn't room in the sedan groups for them during a Championship weekend. So agreed, would've been a hoot to see the Miatas and Legends together in a Special Race.
 
But, I don't see how Legends are sports racers they're fendered.

So's every SR I've ever seen, but the issue is more that they're VERY low to the ground and typically corner like... well, something that corners very quickly (Thomson's Gazelle?) compared to a "sedan." Still, I've never had a problem seeing them in an enduro.

Not to mention that, in this particular instance, the Miatas probably have lower rooflines than the Legends.
 
Holly ( and Rob, Ken, Thomas, Richard, and all of the other fine folk who volunteer and work tirelessly to support the great local racing community )

I hope you never feel like you should keep your mouth shut and do as you are told in our organization. Your participation both in our clubs and on these forums is encouraged and greatly appreciated. I'm often concerned that we fall into the internet communication trap where all of the force and abrasiveness of a partisan discussion is transmitted but none of the human nuance and respect that would be present in a face to face discussion. I think a forum that lets people air their conflicting viewpoints in a very public way provides an essential service to any serious organization provided it stays on a respectful level. Better to air these things and get them dealt with by people who care enough to be really passionate about suggesting solutions then just allowing them to continue to be wrong.

Since the end "consumer" of the racing product we all produce is the driver, we have remained true to the traditional ICSCC rulemaking process which has made Conference one of the friendliest and most successful racing organizations in the nation. I hope you also understand that at every meeting I have ever attended (lots!) we study the impact that any decision might have on our volunteers very carefully. In reality they act as a powerful advisory board and when they have strong feelings concerning the nuts and bolts processes about how races are actually executed, we listen very carefully.

Regardless of whether I agree or disagree with the points raised by driver OR volunteer, merely having the passion to add your intelligence to reasonable debate is offering a great service to the organization.

Whether we agree or not on a particular point, you still have my respect and gratitude for your passionate support of our racing family.

Now, back to sounding like a much bigger <male sexual organ> than I am in real life.
 
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So's every SR I've ever seen, but the issue is more that they're VERY low to the ground and typically corner like... well, something that corners very quickly (Thomson's Gazelle?) compared to a "sedan." Still, I've never had a problem seeing them in an enduro.

Not to mention that, in this particular instance, the Miatas probably have lower rooflines than the Legends.

Ummm,

The Legends are wonderful cars to see in Group 6. They put on a terrific show on the track when watching from the side-lines. And in the paddock, they are a friendly, out going nice group of people to have around :)

Yes, I remember the hubbub in August about allowing the Miata's and Legends on the track together based upon a 'precieved' inability of one set of drivers to see the other due to the 'size' difference of the cars. I found this rather odd as the "normal" composition of Group 6 is Legends, sports racers and open class formula cars (including FV's) and they manage to play nice together.

Sports Racers, Sedans and Coupes have raced together in endurance racing world wide since the beginning of road racing. With proper flaggin, good driver etiquette and situational awareness this should not be a problem.

Would be sorta cool if one or 2 of the Fussion's that will be racing with CSCC next year entered the enduro :cool:
 
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Huh. Your "ummm" made me think you were about to disagree with me, or point out a mistake I'd made, but then you went and reinforced what I'd said. Or am I just confused (again)?
 
RB, the point of contention last August was not the lack of visibility, but rather the weight disparity between Miatas and Legends. It was felt that a 2200 pound car T-boning a very light and sparsely armored Legend could be a nasty occurence. Having once driven a Legend and being around them to some degree, I'd have to agree that their roll cages are not as hefty as what we're used to.
An SR on the other hand is usually a much bigger car, and not an issue on track with fendered cars in my opinion. If it wasn't for that danged SR last year we would have taken 1st overall again in the Helton M3, but boy howdy they do go around corners, especially with the drivers they had! With the high lights most of them run on their roll hop they are easy enough to see, and if it were mandatory, (perhaps it already is) that they run those lights all the time there would be no issue for most of us.
 
I guess the only documentation that I would have of that "philosophy" is that earlier this year Cascade's E Board rep voted against a certain group of E Sports Racers participating in an IRDC special race group involving a split start with Spec Miatas, citing the fear of certain doom from our insurance provider should <horrors> a claim ever have to be filed. Yet another case of "insurance terrors" keeping us all from sleeping at night.

I thought the issue with Legend/Miata special race was rule 1305A. It specifically forbids Legends type cars from running with production based cars. Whether you agree with the rule or not, it is on the books.
 
I never even suggested the problem was one of visibility, although I remember running against a Radical in the 25 hours of Thunderhill that had inexplicably been painted flat black. Well below the level of the windows of a sedan and invisible at night - just looked like a couple of bright lights flying the course at an altitude of three feet. Still never hit it.

Using your same criteria, which I am not sure I agree with, how would a 3000 pound car t-boning a 1300 Sport Racer be less dangerous? A Sports Racer is a longer car that is lower and lighter than a Legend, not bigger. If we were to compare the two, would you say that a SR had any heavier cage than a Legend? I don't think so.

Let me repeat, just so we are clear - I am not taking a position against SR's racing against sedans. Someone else did that, not me. I'm just wondering if the rules are the same for everybody. We should either have a good reason for making specific rules and enforce them uniformly or not make them at all.
 
Good point Eric - Since ICSCC sanctions the Cascade Enduro as a "non-championship race" one would probably expect the 2009 COmpetiton Regulations to govern. A quick perusal of 1305 A would find:

"Sports Racers and purpose-built cars meeting the "less that 3/4 scale" specification spelled out in this section (i.e. Baby Grand or Legend type cars) shall not compete with any other race group in which production based cars compete."

We specifically asked the E-Board for a variance to that rule and it was voted down on the basis of the insurance boogie man under our bed. Again, not sure I completely agree, but the decision was made by good people who profess a desire to protect the future viability of Conference operation from accident liability induced collapse. I'm OK with that if it is in the best interest of Conference and applied uniformly. In justifying the decision, the statement was made that if we went against our own rulebook and something terrible happened we would be placing ourselves in a legally undefensible position. If we choose to follow that same labyrinthine path to it's logical end, haven't we just made that case substantially worse?

If something terrible happens in the Enduro involving a Sports Racer, we won't only be going against our rulebook but additionally ignoring a documented decision earlier in the year that Production based cars and Sports Racers were too damngerous to let play together!

Let's stop making "insurance fears" the scapegoat for unpopular decisions. Either these cars are safe to race together or they are not - insurance just cleans up the mess afterwards when actions (or bad decisions) have unfortunate consequences.

Now the question is really how Cascade has ignored this rule over the last several years?
 
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The rule should be inplace for the regular racing season. But for endurance racing there should be a giving point. Confrence should allow sports racer with sedans for these type of events. That is the best part about endurance racing. If sports racers where not allowed that would be like taking the prototype class out of le mans. Just one mans opinion.
 
1305A-Geez, buried in the 'Car Classification' section.

How come I don't see this...

<delete>--No production based car, (see Sections 1302. A. and 1302. B.) regardless of state of modification, shall be classified as or be allowed to compete with
Sports Racing cars.--<end>

...in the rules changes list. Don't that kinda gets it goin' both ways.

I bet dollars to no nuts, that it was Chad's "Road Warrior" that claims the intent of that particular bit, and the phrase that has been put up for the pass/fail vote may have been installed to clarify those new 'experimentals' coming into the area.

Missing something am I, here? :confused:
 
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As a longtime Legends racer and one that has hit a cement wall at aprox 115mph I can tell you that our cars can indeed withstand a good pounding. We are happy to run with whomever we are allowed to race with. I may have mentioned this before but my son and I race in California with the NASA group to extend our season and improve our driving skills. This last June we raced at Infineon on the track at the same time as full blown stock cars such as the one Randy and gang run. I have a great picture of my son drafting a stock car and the stock car spinning in turn 10. Also running were Mustangs, fully enclosed sports racers, and various others that I can't rememer at this moment. I wonder how they can insure that? If a rule change is needed up here then we will be happy to support it. We just want to race with ICSCC. Not just for the racing, but for the friendships we have made outside the Legends world.
 
Okay, sorry R. Bostrom, I was replying to R. Broadhead. Damn this is hard sometimes ya know.
But, in response to your usual finely tuned posts, I do not agree with your comment about most SR's being smaller than a Legend. Most SR's are as long or longer than the average OW car, which is like 14 feet stem to stern. They are surrounded by much more tubing than a Legend, (sorry Norm) and much stronger pound for pound, at least as heavy if not heavier, and not much lower, if at all.
Chad was not the emphasis behind the very old rule change taking prod cars out of the SR arena Kenny. That happened in the 70's as I recall, although Mr. Boggs could expound on that far better than me. I ran EP, EIP and DSR regularly in those days until it was determined that it was too dangerous to continue, although I don't recall any particular episodes that prompted that decision. Dick, do you?
 
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