SCCA ITJ being discussed on ImprovedTouring.com
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colin_koehler
Great SCOTT!
There are dozens and dozens of gems in that thread.
I really like this one:
Thread like that make a love what we have at Conference more and more everyday.
I really like this one:
Thread like that make a love what we have at Conference more and more everyday.
Steve Adams
Just this guy, ya know?
To be fair, a lot of those comments are similar to comments on this forum and elsewhere; i.e., that these kinds of cars and this type of class (it's got "junk" in the official name!) is not appropriate (whatever that means) for a racing organization that ISN'T about racing these kinds of cars in the first place. Has anyone read our competition regulations that specifically talk about there being no primer visible on a car (e.g.)? I believe the SCCA rules are even more explicit about appearance than ours are.
colin_koehler
Great SCOTT!
I was deliberately trying to avoid that part of the discussion Steve.
Steve Adams
Just this guy, ya know?
What part of the discussion? That it's not just those poor, misguided SCCA folks who have concerns about a class like this? Or that it's not just SCCA's rules that might have an issue with the overall appearance of some of the potential class-legal cars? Oregon Region did themselves absolutely NO favors by calling the class Improved Touring Junk, especially as I've seen some of the cars that would be legal for the class and they wouldn't look out of place in a Conference event.
colin_koehler
Great SCOTT!
In the 6 pages of that thread there's multiple topics/arguments being discussed.
While the argument about IT-Junk from the IT crowd is valid, it was initially posited poorly, I felt. It did kind of come off at first as some unnecessary elitism but was later corrected as people finally reiterated the point that it should just be classed as something different entirely as it is something different entirely. That argument that developed was teetering on being mired in the "we're better than them" cesspool and that's what I was trying to avoid. That's all. For those concerned about IT-J, I think the concerns are reasonable and not elitist and shouldn't be confused as such.
The other argument that was made was about barriers to entry regarding racing with the SCCA vs Chump. Some of the points about BoE were completely valid but most of those barriers still existed with Chump which made me chuckle. However, once the laughter subsided I realize that while the BoE's between SCCA racing and Chump are a bit different, the perception of them have the biggest delta.
Chump isn't many things... it's one thing and thus the perception is simplified. SCCA is many things with many programs in many places so I could see how the perception of complexity is much greater.
It's my opinion that the BoE argument falls on its face though once you've built a car for Chump or SCCA/Club. Once you have a car, a cage and all your required safety equipment/gear that is required by either organization the next steps needed to actually get on track and go play are pretty even. It's just that picking the car, class, setup blah blah blah is easier with Chump because there's only 1 option: Sub $500 car.
SCCA Oregon region is thinking outside the box here and I'm very curious to see how it plays out. I believe that part of their necessity to think outside the box and consider options of this nature has a big part to do with the ICSCC's success in the NW. I think the idea of Chump/Lemon's cars having a place in club racing is intriguing and better yet, with SCCA doing this first it gives Conference an excellent opportunity to let another organization be the test bed for the validity or success of this idea.
While the argument about IT-Junk from the IT crowd is valid, it was initially posited poorly, I felt. It did kind of come off at first as some unnecessary elitism but was later corrected as people finally reiterated the point that it should just be classed as something different entirely as it is something different entirely. That argument that developed was teetering on being mired in the "we're better than them" cesspool and that's what I was trying to avoid. That's all. For those concerned about IT-J, I think the concerns are reasonable and not elitist and shouldn't be confused as such.
The other argument that was made was about barriers to entry regarding racing with the SCCA vs Chump. Some of the points about BoE were completely valid but most of those barriers still existed with Chump which made me chuckle. However, once the laughter subsided I realize that while the BoE's between SCCA racing and Chump are a bit different, the perception of them have the biggest delta.
Chump isn't many things... it's one thing and thus the perception is simplified. SCCA is many things with many programs in many places so I could see how the perception of complexity is much greater.
It's my opinion that the BoE argument falls on its face though once you've built a car for Chump or SCCA/Club. Once you have a car, a cage and all your required safety equipment/gear that is required by either organization the next steps needed to actually get on track and go play are pretty even. It's just that picking the car, class, setup blah blah blah is easier with Chump because there's only 1 option: Sub $500 car.
SCCA Oregon region is thinking outside the box here and I'm very curious to see how it plays out. I believe that part of their necessity to think outside the box and consider options of this nature has a big part to do with the ICSCC's success in the NW. I think the idea of Chump/Lemon's cars having a place in club racing is intriguing and better yet, with SCCA doing this first it gives Conference an excellent opportunity to let another organization be the test bed for the validity or success of this idea.
john_rissberger
John Rissberger
Well said Colin!
I think the different club/organizations should complement one another for the betterment of the sport.
A welcoming smile and how can we help mind set will go a long way to making our customers have a fun weekend of Racin.
.02
John Rissberger
# 10 Camaro A/S Oregon
ICSCC Senior
SCCA National
Last edited:
cagedruss
Fabricator
I am not a big poster here but I do like to lurk about to see what is going on. I raced the last Chump Race at PIR last weekend and I know of 5 cars that could do pretty well in IT. I saw a few at the last SCCA weekend School and all the cars had paint, legal cages and are on street tires. There are very few cars that look like junk and that is OK. Those cars will not be doing any races with SCCA or any other racing venues because the owners like just running the Chump Series.
There are plenty of cars in the series that have a ton of hours developing suspension and handling, some even paint and body work. Our 83 Camaro does not have the nicest paint but I have spent a lot of time to make it handle. I was able to turn a lap time of 1:31:87 with chicane on two season old Dunlop Durezzas 200 UTQG tires. Engine is out of a 88 Camaro with a factory zz4 roller cam and a holley 650, cast crank and Stock rods and not as much HP's as a AS Car. Thanks to Tim Deckert for donating the engine from his spare parts car. There are plenty of cars that can run a 1:34 so saying these cars are not capable or are not real race cars is really not seeing the big picture.
I for one am pleased to see the Oregon Region step out of the box to attract new cars and potential full time SCCA members and there maybe even some spill over to Conference. The only way to attract new members is to offer a place to run their cars and assist them to make them comply to the groups rules.
For those of you that have yet to go to a Chump Race you should try to make an event, it is a lot of fun for the money and the racing is actually pretty good. Being on track with 50-80 cars really gets the adrenaline going.
There is plenty of negativity between all the organizations and I for one would like to see them work together and prosper to create something better. There are plenty of cars here in the NW to have a great show.
There are plenty of cars in the series that have a ton of hours developing suspension and handling, some even paint and body work. Our 83 Camaro does not have the nicest paint but I have spent a lot of time to make it handle. I was able to turn a lap time of 1:31:87 with chicane on two season old Dunlop Durezzas 200 UTQG tires. Engine is out of a 88 Camaro with a factory zz4 roller cam and a holley 650, cast crank and Stock rods and not as much HP's as a AS Car. Thanks to Tim Deckert for donating the engine from his spare parts car. There are plenty of cars that can run a 1:34 so saying these cars are not capable or are not real race cars is really not seeing the big picture.
I for one am pleased to see the Oregon Region step out of the box to attract new cars and potential full time SCCA members and there maybe even some spill over to Conference. The only way to attract new members is to offer a place to run their cars and assist them to make them comply to the groups rules.
For those of you that have yet to go to a Chump Race you should try to make an event, it is a lot of fun for the money and the racing is actually pretty good. Being on track with 50-80 cars really gets the adrenaline going.
There is plenty of negativity between all the organizations and I for one would like to see them work together and prosper to create something better. There are plenty of cars here in the NW to have a great show.
Attachments
robjacobsen
The Pros From Dover
colin_koehler
Great SCOTT!
Don't forget to end the quote the command is: [/quote]
You're right about the race license vs street license but honestly doing a race school and applying for license isn't exactly pulling teeth but it does aid in that perception that BoE is high.
Rob, I ask here because I'll forget to ask by the time I see you in person again but...
Can you tell me more about the "Workers Revenge"? Who participated, how was it funded, how many workers raced it and how'd they do? I'm really excited about having the workers out there having fun getting on track themselves! The comment you make about them having and understanding of how busy a driver is behind the wheel is very cool indeed. Ironically it also gives them insight on HOW a driver has no excuse for not seeing the yellow flag regardless of how busy they are!
Working corners made me appreciate those folks a lot more so it's neat to hear that when those folks get a chance to be behind the wheel the same effect takes place!
If there was an ICSCC Chump-car worker fund, I'd definitely donate.
You're right about the race license vs street license but honestly doing a race school and applying for license isn't exactly pulling teeth but it does aid in that perception that BoE is high.
Rob, I ask here because I'll forget to ask by the time I see you in person again but...
Can you tell me more about the "Workers Revenge"? Who participated, how was it funded, how many workers raced it and how'd they do? I'm really excited about having the workers out there having fun getting on track themselves! The comment you make about them having and understanding of how busy a driver is behind the wheel is very cool indeed. Ironically it also gives them insight on HOW a driver has no excuse for not seeing the yellow flag regardless of how busy they are!
Working corners made me appreciate those folks a lot more so it's neat to hear that when those folks get a chance to be behind the wheel the same effect takes place! If there was an ICSCC Chump-car worker fund, I'd definitely donate.
mikecolangelo
Well-known member
Speaking of crapcan races, the next Rat Race crapcan race at ORP is in a couple of weeks.
mikecolangelo
Well-known member
Colin, Worker's Revenge runs a second gen CRX. They're doing pretty well out there!
Steve Adams
Just this guy, ya know?
This is why I think it was really regrettable that they chose to name the class what they did. Yes, they needed to come up with something new to classify these cars, but using "junk" in the name just perpetuates the stereotype that ANY car to come out of "crapcan" racing is, in fact, a crapcan. There are lots of cars that do that kind of racing that I wouldn't want entered in a race I'm in, mainly because I hate full-course cautions, but there are also cars there that don't, fundamentally, look or act any differently than cars we race with already.
So why, given that scenario, would OR Region want to start acceptance of this new class from a hole of their own making? I don't get it.
robjacobsen
The Pros From Dover
You're right about the race license vs street license but honestly doing a race school and applying for license isn't exactly pulling teeth but it does aid in that perception that BoE is high.
Rob, I ask here because I'll forget to ask by the time I see you in person again but...
Can you tell me more about the "Workers Revenge"? Who participated, how was it funded, how many workers raced it and how'd they do? I'm really excited about having the workers out there having fun getting on track themselves! The comment you make about them having and understanding of how busy a driver is behind the wheel is very cool indeed. Ironically it also gives them insight on HOW a driver has no excuse for not seeing the yellow flag regardless of how busy they are!
Working corners made me appreciate those folks a lot more so it's neat to hear that when those folks get a chance to be behind the wheel the same effect takes place! If there was an ICSCC Chump-car worker fund, I'd definitely donate.[/QUOTE]
I'll probably get some things wrong, so hopefully someone will correct my errors. The car is largely funded by donations of parts, fuel and such. Chump Car comps the entry fee since while we are participating as racers, we are also participating as volunteers. Our members man pit out and pit in dealing with the clocks. My son, Adam drives the Chase truck when he isn't racing. My sole responsibility is to watch the clock and discuss what we need to do at the next pit stop. Oh yeah, I provide my travel trailer that is used for meal prep. The workers who drove include Kim McFarland, Erin Ebelmesser, Scott Goodrich, Tracy Klein, Adam Jacobsen, a transplanted worker from Colorado by the name of Patrick, Scott Hanken, Dan Zenner and Bobbie Smethers. Bobbie, Dan and Sott Hanken all have driving experience, but are also workers in one area or another. We finished 22nd on Saturday and 25th on Sunday if I recall correctly. Our stints are not based so much on race stratagy as much as the endurance of the drivers. Those that wanted longer stints raced on Saturday, with most of them doing 1.5 hours. The car is capable of going over two hours on a fill since it is only a 1.5L Honda CRX. At the October race last fall, I believe that we finished 12th out of some 84 cars. We are definitly out there for fun and bragging rights, not for the win. This time, we brought the car home with no body damage that wasn't there at the start. Due to a combination of timing and skill, Adam set the best lap for the team. Not bad for someone who doesn't drive a stick and had a hard time getting the car moving from a stop. Each event, he has to get permission to install his pedal extension while the car is being fueled. Otherwise it would add an additional 2 minutes to pit stops that involve that operation. One issue that the team has is the driving seat. With the wide range of body shapes and sizes the team has, finding a seat that will fit in the car, fit the bodies and is HANS compatible has been a problem. The last seat was not HANS compatible. Dan Zenner loaned us a seat that he had just bought which had the dual cutouts for the shoulder straps, but it was for a much smaller butt and barely fit in the small cockpit of the CRX. I understand that the plan is to replace the clutch before the October race since the current one has about out of adjustment range. Kim McFarland is the team manager and the go to gal for those interested in helping out the team.
robjacobsen
The Pros From Dover
For those that are interested and on Facebook, there is a Worker's Revenge page there where you can following the team and see a bunch of pictures of our exploits.