Rule 1105(E) Change

robjacobsen

robjacobsen

The Pros From Dover
Its always dangerous when I read through the new rules that were passed at the Fall Meeting. The Memo shows Rule 1105 (E) as

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All required driver's safety equipment must be worn while on the track and in the hot pits.

Amended by the E-board to add "While under Power". Rule passed as ammended.
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I don't have to rule book here to check, but this seems to beg the question

"Does a driver have to wear his safety equipment while the car is being flat towed back to the pits?"

I don't know the offcial answer to that, but I don't think I'd be wilingl to tow a disabled car back to the pits with the driver having his safety gear on. Stuff happens and flat towed cars have gotten out of control and flipped over. If someone wants to claim that this rule exempts them from wearing their gear, I'll simply use my God given right to un-volunteer to tow them.
 
Begging an answer for our purposes will get you E 1515.

I hope that isn't misconstrued to mean that they can take their helmets off if we only tow them to the next available split.

Thanks Grandpa, I needed the exercise.
 
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Rob,

EVERY flat tow I've been involved with as a turn station worker, the E-crew DOES require the driver to have his helmet on and gloves (especially if holding the tow line). Belts seem to be 'optional'.

Why wouldn't you want a driver to have his gear on when being flat towed particularly if it's a HOT track??

The only thing this 'rule' seems to be saying is, FULL safety gear is required when the vehicle is under its own power ANYWHERE. I know some drivers (in that 'other' club) have been chastised for taking their gloves off before exiting the track on a cool down lap and others have been chastised for driving in the paddock without a helmet on pre/post race.
 
I don't remember all the details, but I do remember there was a fair bit of discussion about this at the time. As I recall, there was an alternative to the amended wording that I (personally) preferred, but an argument was made that most people seemed to agree made this wording better.
 
I was sitting in on the E Board meeting when this was discussed. I believe the "while under power" ammendment was made to allow for drivers without crew to make quick adjustments to the car while in the hotpits. Without that wording drivers would be forced to return to the paddock to make the quickest of fixes, and during a race you cannot return to a race after going to the paddock. As for the safety equipment issues under a flat tow, I suppose 402 B 4 would cover it. Although now that I look through the rulebook there's nothing that says the compeitors have to listen to the turn crews. I suppose the ultimate answer is if the driver doesn't want to wear the safety gear, he can walk in and the car can be pushed into a split unitl the end of the day :D

Perhaps there should be something in the rules of the road section about obeying the instructions of the marhals. But then again we've made it 50 years without having such a rule.

db
 
ORSCCA Supp regs mandate full belts, helmet, gloves and eye protection be worn when towing. I can't speak for other regions, but the GCR doesn't read the same. Maybe I'll look that up to be more accurate sometime later. It's easier since the re-design/configuration of the rules.

1515 has been in place for a very, very, very,... long time. No surprises there. Perhaps like one of those rules that's been there so long that no one reads/sees it anymore. (i.e. Numbers on the back of the car)
 
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db1 said:
..... Although now that I look through the rulebook there's nothing that says the compeitors have to listen to the turn crews. I suppose the ultimate answer is if the driver doesn't want to wear the safety gear, he can walk in and the car can....
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I've NEVER seen a driver refuse to follow the 'requests' of a Turn Station crew or an E-crew member. But I guess it does probably happen. They may fuss a little about some things but in the end they do what's asked.
 
I was looking for something like 1515 when I went through the rule book, but I was searching for different key words I guess.

Happy New Year everyone!

db
 
Steve, I think the wording they were kicking around was something about "while the car is in motion" or "while the car is moving" or "while the car is rolling....they nixed that one quick".
But Kenny hit the nail on the head about Rule 1515. It says exactly what they MUST have on when being flat towed, so there can be no argument from the driver, but that rule wasn't what they wanted to change.

We still continue to have and will have for some time to come, the problem of rules pretaining to one item, scattered in bits an pieces throughout the rule book. Mike B. is indexing the rule book I believe to make it more user friendly. But with having the bits and pieces of rules throughout, when you change one rule, you may need to change a corresponding rule as well, or you will end up with rules that contradict each other. Trust me, this has happened before.

As for drivers having to listen to turn crews......402 B4 says.... The steward may blah blah blah competitor who refuses to obey the order of a responsible Official. We are officials.
Race Officiials Division covers all specialties, trackside or not, and even if one is not an ROD Member that doesn't change your position as an official. So, ya, they have to listen to turn crews too.

Happy New Year to all!!!!! (and yes, now the new year has begun, I'm chomping at the bit for the Enduro)
 
The rule change was particular to those drivers that start to undress on their cool down lap, and we are constantly chewing up air time reporting these "violations".

As it turned out, you can't have a violation, if its not an enforceable rule, or regulation. As we already know, you can't depend on any consistency of common sense, because the sense of 'safety' varies from personality to personality, and from sport to sport..
That is the nature of things.

Race marshals must expect and be prepared for the worst case scenario. It's what keeps us on top of our game.

Drivers, and you can ask any pro, try to put most of those kind of issues out of their mind in order to concentrate on, and achieve their primary mission of a win case scenario.

The cool down lap is exactly that, and it's purpose, or intention is the cooling down of the race car, AND the race driver. So now the issue 'begs' just how far should the control of a race event allow the drivers to 'cool down'. Taking off the gloves, and/or helmet (yes, I've seen it happen) may seem pretty innocuous, innocent, and even harmless, under the circumstances. 99.9% of the time it may be. But it only takes that one incident, doesn't it? We've watched driver/cars still driving at speed after the checkered. Perhaps not to the extent of a 'dangerous driving' call... until that worst case thing pops up again.

1105 is a good rule, and placed correctly in the Safety Equipment section of the Regs. Sometimes it's very hard to word regulations to completely cover the total intent, and not leave any glaring loopholes, or error in the reg which makes it harder to enforce when necessary.

In the, 'just my two cents' category I believe that we really need to re-format the ICSCC Regs, and get rid of the 'story book' style that has made them harder to read and comprehend. Simple sentences work the best, I think.

Thanks for the good work ekiM. I expect/hope to see you back in the Stewards' saddle in the future. It's important for continuity, consistency, and it lends a challenge for those who follow.
 
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Ken Killam said:
The cool down lap is exactly that, and it's purpose, or intention is the cooling down of the race car, AND the race driver. So now the issue 'begs' just how far should the control of a race event allow the drivers to 'cool down'. Taking off the gloves, and/or helmet (yes, I've seen it happen) may seem pretty innocuous, innocent, and even harmless, under the circumstances.
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Even when it's really hot, I'm only comfortable pushing my visor up on the cool-down. I can understand those drivers that remove their gloves, but I can slap my visor back down in the event of something "unexpected" a lot quicker than I can squirm back into my gloves. Even on a long track like Spokane, the cool-down lap isn't THAT long.

Ken Killam said:
In the, 'just my two cents' category I believe that we really need to re-format the ICSCC Regs, and get rid of the 'story book' style that has made them harder to read and comprehend. Simple sentences work the best, I think.
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Amen. Are there any roadblocks other than time/interest to getting some sort of working group together for the purpose of going through the rules and cleaning up/re-organizing/streamlining them?
 
Roadblocks? No. And we create our own hurtles. The process is the same, save it may not be necessarily have to maintain the uber-burden of the "Only drivers can change the rules" process. Something like this could be done, and presented as completed edit(s) for the ICSCC BoD reps and officers to make a decision on how to proceed with it at the Fall mtg so they have the opportunity to actually put those changes into affect by the Spring (New Year's) mtg.

That may be what ekiM is looking to do, but I dunno, I am only one small pawn in the big game of life. That might be a quote.

Here's an experiment. (I've done this, but can't seem to find the copy); Take a section, or maybe one particularly wordy regulation (the five minute warning thing comes to mind), and re-format it by separating individual sentences into individual paragraphs while not changing one word anyplace, even when the grammar sucks. Then identify those paragraphs in outline form with the appropriate sub-set "bullet-point" identifiers. Pretty soon you find that we're talking particular sentences to change instead of the whole dang thang.

Did that make any sense...?

And if one person, no... two people do that. and put those pages together you might have a good read. And if five more people grabbed a couple more sections, and shared those, you might have another whole new perspective on the "Rules of the Road" to drop down in front of the Board...And well... "They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may think it's a movement.

And that's what it is, the Alice's Restaurant Anti-Massacre Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the guitar."-- That is definitely very quote-like.

I'm sure I (we) was talkin' about this stuff about 6 years ago too. And... "I could sing it for another twenty five minutes (years). I'm not proud... or tired."--Arlo G.
 
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Richard Broadhead said:
... and others have been chastised for driving in the paddock without a helmet on pre/post race.
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Just to be clear, here is the full 1606 C rule:
Anyone driving an open wheel car in the pits or paddock area shall at all times wear a helmet and suitable eye protection.


Also, the statement that :
"FULL safety gear is required when the vehicle is under its own power ANYWHERE." got me curious.

It appears you can drive to pre-grid without full safety gear and in sedans you can do so without a helmet and gloves, but 1105B stipulates you must wear safety belts.
If I read too much into the 1105 section it suggests I can go to pre-grid buck naked, but must wear my belts. You can only hope I have 3 inch belts, not 2 inch. And I must suit up prior to entering the course. How I do so without taking off my belts remains a mystery.
 
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1606 has been in existence for a very, very, very,,,,long time also. It was obviously protection for the drivers of open cockpit, open wheel cars to avoid the stuff that the exposed surface of the tires might throw into a driver's face while motoring around in the paddock, and such. I can only suppose that it was written with a specific and important intent at the time. I remember some instances where a Steward was verbally chastising competitors with the enforcement of this rule as they motored into Pre-Grid unprotected.

Go figure. And we'll assume that all of these violators were adults and capable of assessing their own environment of safety.

Different regulations to cover different situations? Don't you dare spill hot coffee in your lap either. Especially when you're naked... and fully belted... for three hours.
 
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And with belts that are less than 2 years old course!
If Bill shows up on pre-grid naked, with belts or not, I will leave that area very quickly!
It was a real eye opener at Road America last July, (read SCCA), to see drivers in SR's and OW's running around the paddock with no helmet and no eye protection - and not a word was said. Common sense; what is that again, I forget?
I've had a pebble in the eyeball from stupidly driving thru the SIR paddock sans helmet, and boy did I feel dumb. That was centuries ago, but it hasn't happened again.
If a driver shows up to pre-grid without a helmet or belts, no matter how new they may be, (the belts that is), he should have hot liquid poured in his lap just because...
 
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