Pay out, why not ?

Victory Racing

Victory Racing

Member
Have a question I would like to throw out there.... With all the Sanctioning Race bodys I have been involved in, I have never raced where there was not some type of pay out. Why can't we do some type of pay out??
Even if it was for 1st Place only in a class. Such as if a class has 7 or more cars in the class, then 1st place receive's their entry fee back or maybe half, then if you have 14 or more cars 1st gets entry fee and 2nd gets half.
We all know we (racer's) have thousands of dollars invested in our cars and set ups. I and everyone else knows that with out tracks we don't have races, without volunteers we dont have races, without racer's we don't have races, I get all that! Just wondering why we can not do some type of small payout?

Thanks, Mark Nichols
 
How about because the races are put on by not-for-profit CLUBS so their members have a place to race their cars? The "racers" are the ones who actually either do all the work to make the races happen or expect some other member of the club to do it for them WITHOUT COMPENSATION by the way.

So what you are requesting is that the people who want to race form a club in order to make that economically possible, ask volunteers to do all the work, then get those volunteers to collect additional money from everyone to entice attendance from club members who are supposed to be so interested in racing that they formed a club to make it possible?

This is precisely why I think that club members have erroneously begun to think of themselves as customers instead of integral participants with a responsibility to support their club with both their efforts and their participation.

Just to compare and contrast - if you look at the local racing series that pay participants you will notice that it is typically a short track owner who also acts as a promoter. The drivers that race at that particular venue are in essence "performers" who the promoter pays to provide a good enough show at his "venue" that he can sell tickets to "spectators" with the expectation that he will make a "profit" from ticket sales in excess of what he has to pay the "performers". In essense it is like a bar owner hiring a band or a comedian to attract more customers and raise profits. To emulate that model the clubs in Conference would have to charge higher entries to cover any payouts because it is unrealistic to assume significant revenues from the sale of tickets to spectators considering the increase in insurance costs, the marketing costs to alert potential spectators that the races are occuring and that they are entertaining enough for them to pay to see, and the amount of ticket sale revenue that we would have to share with some of the tracks that we race at if we greatly increased attendance. Amateur racing clubs are formed to address the needs of their member racers, not the needs of spectators.

On the other hand, if you personally want to guarantee a payout to winning drivers and try to cover your outlay by promoting, marketing, attracting, and charging spectators while covering the cost of insurance and satisfying track requirements there are probably several member clubs that would be happy to talk to you.
 
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Well I apparently struck a nerve, which was not my intention!!! I was simply asking a question and was not insinuating anything nor was I asking anyone to do any thing... Was just looking at (example) the Rose cup, was that not a Club event ? I am under the assumption that was a SCCA Event, I know they charged for parking,entry and so on... I do not know the Cost of the Track Rental anymore or as far as that goes what it does cost to put on a Race anymore. All I see is it Seems awful expensive for entry fees, Which is about three to four times the amount we paid to enter a race that WE WERE racing for a small purse, and with talking to several people there are a lot of car's sitting because of Entry fee's being rather expensive. Once again NOT TRYING TO STRIKE ANY NERVES just asking questions that others wont !

Thanks, Mark
 
Rick hit most of it on the head. This amature racing and by deffination or money is exchanged.

I have been in on a lot of event setups over the last couple of years and here is what I have learned.

It cost's an average of $22,000 to $28,000 a two day week end at PIR, Pacific and The Ridge. If I remember correctly, it is $18,000 to $20,000 at ORP and Spokane.

These cost are for the track, Ambulance, portapotties, sweeper, and other 'basic's'.

As for paying for parking at Rose Cups, that is handled by and for the track, SCCA does not get any of that, and if there is a spectater fee most of that also goes to the track.

Race entery fees are set to cover the basic cost of the event.

IE: If an event is going to run $25,000 for the basic's and the group hopes for a 100 enteries then the cost to enter would be around $250.00.

As Rick stated, these are 'not for profit clubs' and can only take in the amount of money to put the event on and legally also take in a VERY small amount of extra money towards other expense.
 
It's really pretty simple. Most other places put paying customers into the stands who are willing to pay money to see the racing, and get sponsors
that are willing to pay for the advertising of being associated with those races. This
is what allows them to pay out money. With ICSCC, SCCA, and so forth in road racing, these clubs exist to put on races so that the drivers
can race. The number of spectators is too small to make money from them, and the lack of spectators makes these races mostly unattractive from
an advertising point of view. A driver's entry fee goes to pay for the track, for the insurance, for the ambulance, for the wrecker, and so on, and the
little bit the clubs make goes back into their own racing programs, ... in order to be able to put on the races the next season.
 
I had composed this message earlier but decided not to post it. Now, after seeing some of the responses, I sort-of wish I had. Basically, the only amateur racing organizations that have payouts are actually distributing prize purses provided by a sponsor (which might actually be the track owner/manager). You will frequently encounter purses at oval races because they're either "events" put on by the track or they actually have a corporate sponsor (for the event or the series itself). Sometimes you'll get one-off sponsors for road races or for special events (the 25, e.g.), but you don't really encounter them at amateur road races because there's nowhere for that prize money to come from: the organization putting on the event has margins that are too slim to support prize money and nobody seems to want to sponsor road racing.
 
While I totally agree with Rick, it is the case that individual clubs are free to pay prize money or other rewards at their events. Cascade has offered prize money for top finishers in recent enduros, specifically contingent on number of entries. My team finished first in class in 2011 and 2012 in the Cascade 8-hour. We won a big $285 in '11, and zero in '12 due to entries being down. We didn't enter either year for the prize money - the $285 amounted to about a 6% rebate on team expenses. Nice to have, but tiny in the scheme of a race season.

Clubs have to budget for long-term capital expenses like safety trucks and radio gear, as well as for the driver levy paid to Conference per event to cover some of the expenses of the officials who have to be at every race - there's more to it than track rental fees. Ask your club's race chair or treasurer. Clubs try to run break-even over the long term, so if they're going to pay prize money, entry fees have to rise. They have to decide if the increased entries from the draw of prize money (if any) will offset the loss of entries (if any) due to higher entry fees. And for the most part they seem to have decided it won't.
 
For many years I was involved at various levels with the roundy round group, mostly at the Evergreen State Fairgrounds in Monroe, Washington. In the mid to late 1970's with a friend that had a NASCAR Limited Sportsman car, and later with another friend who ran Super Stock. Neither guy ever brought home purse money that even came close to the amount that they spent for their cars, tires, engines, fuel, travel expenses, etc.

And they spent almost every Saturday night beating and banging with the other guys, often going home pissed off and with a pile of bashed up sheet metal on the trailer.

I tried bracket racing for a while, never picked up a dime for all the money I spent, and got bored real quick. Those 15 second passes get shorter with every pass.

About 1985 I came out and hung around the road course to see what it was all about. I liked what I saw. Especially the Saturday evening barbecue and some beer (I really miss that).

My first full season with the Conference was 1990. I finished 3rd in the season points for the class that I ran. Because I used BF Goodrich tires all year I was awarded a check for something like $83. That didn't even pay for one tire.

I didn't join the IRDC and get an ICSCC competition license so I could "make money" or win a purse for placing in races and for the season championship payout. I came out to race and have fun with like minded people who enjoy road racing.

After a season or two I ran into one of my circle track buddies and invited him to a Conference meet. After spending the weekend and seeing what it was all about he asked the same question that a lot of people ask.

"How much is the purse?"

Of course I replied, "Purse? Um, this is amateur road racing, there is no purse."

My friend was incredulous. He bragged about how he had won the season points battle the previous year, and how much it "paid".

I was quick to point out that the season points payout would not even cover the cost of an engine for him, and his tire bill for the year was equally expensive. Oh, and he went through several engines on the way to that championship, each one paid for out of his own pocket. Sure, he had some "sponsors". Just like I did, the sponsorship didn't cover much.

Only a very small percentage of racers actually make money racing. The racers at the very top of whatever type of racing it is, road racing, circle track, drag racing.

Much like many other Conference racers, I have built every engine I have raced with, I build and maintain my own car. I raced with the Conference because I wanted to. I found that almost without exception that all the other racers were out there at each race meet for the very same reason that I was.

Because we love to race.

Not because there is money in it.

I really think that if there was purse money involved it would ruin what the Conference is all about. Yes, for some it was a starting point. There have been Conference members who have gone on to the pro levels and been successful. But most of the racers in Conference participate because they love the competition, and they enjoy the fellowship on and off the track.

After 20 years of running all around the Northwest with the Conference and a few races with the SCCA Northwest Region I have some of the fondest memories of my life. I made many great friends at the track. I would still be racing but I built a house a few years ago and the mortgage takes up too much of my income to allow me to continue.

But I still have my race car, and am keeping it ready, because there will be a time when the financial situation will change again. And there are a couple of new tracks I haven't raced at yet, and Mission is different than the last time I raced up there.

And my desire to go out and have fun is just as strong as it always was.
 
Sorry if my writing style leads people to think they have "hit a nerve", definitely not the case. It was a fair question and caused me no emotional reaction - I just banged it out while finishing some paperwork at 2:30 in the morning.

I spent a lot of time pondering the economic realities of insuring the continued success of a club that was nurtured by several decades of mostly careful management becasue I didn't want to be the one to have a reasonably fragile egg slip through my fingers and be irretrieveably broken. I considered things like performance based awards as an incentive to maintain high participation aong with a lot of other things some mundane and some more esoteric. In the end I came to some pretty straightforward realizations:

1) Increasing entry fees to provide for a prize fund in a club setting is simply asset redistribution. I'm not against that at a low level, but lets be honest - the gross majority of people racing have close to ZERO chance of recieving the benefit of a prize for winning. Combine the number of races with your aforementioned seven entrants to qualify (small), the number of drivers who have a realistic opportunity to win in a class that has more than seven entrants (small), and the potential size of the prize compared to the amount of money invested in training, gear, entries, and car (extremely small) and you end up with a marketing tool too weak to draw much participation but more likely to deter some!

2) I'm not so much chastising the members and participants for acting like customers as I am club officers like myself who, with the very best intentions for our fellow members and our clubs, have repeatedly treated them like customers to the point that they have gotten used to the feeling. There are some very wealthy and successful people who race in Conference who can afford to hire tracks for private test days or even promote private races if they so choose. The reality is that the overwhelming majority cannot and their best chance of participating in door to door racing that fits their wants and needs is to get together with a bunch of like-minded people and form a club. That way they can pool their money and efforts in order to rent a racing venue and equipment and apply volunteer effort where required to give their members an opportunity to race. Somewhere along the way racing opportunities multiplied and various organizations started competing for attendance - both racing and non-racing. In order to make Conference races a desireable place for people to spend their discretionary entertainment dollars some of us started competing to get the attendance of the very people who joined a club to make those races happen! I know it is hard to hear it, but this is CLUB racing put on by CLUB members. Some drivers contribute a membership, entry fees, and a whole lot of effort to put on races. Other drivers contribute a membership, and entry fees. If continued club operation is all about finding altruistic, passionate, and principled SUCKERS - those kind of people are getting a bit thin on the ground. If that is the model we want to pursue it will inevitably lead to hiring good, hardworking and intelligent people to manage the club FOR MONEY and racers will just write checks - and those checks might get pretty big. Seems like it is heading that way because in the last six plus years that I have been involved with the Board at IRDC there have been perhaps two contested positions requiring the casting of actual ballots, the other 60+ postions we felt lucky to get a single SUCKER who was willing to fill the position. Any clubs Race Chair is probably the single most important seat to fill in the Club - and it's a ton of work! I don't know how we have managed to always fill that with such a succession of great people, it's a mystery to me.

Anyway, nothing bad intended from my part. Good for you for exploring the topic and being concerned about future participation levels, and additionally it started a good discussion. I have lots of investment in the subject and am pretty passionate about it so sorry if you percieved my response as negative.
 
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Been wanting to reply all day but had problems getting back on the Forum.. Anyway thanks for all the Input ! Did not realize the track rental was so expensive, Thank you Radio Dave, That was a eye opener.. After reading that, enough said. And just to make a few things clear on my behalf : 1st of all I damn sure don't do this for Money or lack of haha, I do this as a Hobby and new full well going into this adventure (Road Racing) That it was no purse! I was just curios as of why and now that I have been Told !, I fully understand and do not take anything that the volunteer's do for granted and enjoy this very much. So to conclude, Thank you for the input and thank you for all those that volunteer to make it happen for all of us!!!!! Mark
 
rick_bostrom said:
. . . . . . and apply volunteer effort where required to give their members an opportunity to race.
Click to expand...

Victory Racing said:
. . . . . . and thank you for all those that volunteer to make it happen for all of us!!!!!
Click to expand...

This is one thing that we do not do enough of, is to thank the many volunteers who give so generously of their time and efforts so that we can go out and play.

Everyone, from those who are elected or appointed to various club positions so the club can operate and function, to the turn workers who give up travel time and weekends just to stand in the hot sun or pouring rain and wave flags at us.

Every single day we need to keep those people at the forefront of our thoughts as we prepare to go out on track.

And always remember to seek them out when you are at the track and thank them.

For if they did not give up their time to do what they do, we would not be able to go out and race.
 
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