Open Discussion involving Race starts

Since there's nothing in the rules about how fast the pace car is supposed to be going, it seems like this question is just begging for a poll of the drivers to see what we'd like the pace of the pace car to be. Unfortunately, the percentage of the membership that is active (whatever that means) on this forum is pretty small, so I don't know that it would get us anywhere substantive.

For myself, I'd like to see a pace that is "brisk" (i.e., at least 40MPH) and for the pole sitter to maintain that same pace after the pace car has pulled off.
 
As an observer, I would also think 40mph is a good pace. It is a two way street though. I have seen many races with 25mph pace where the back half of the group is still not in a tight group. Take that speed up to 40mph, and it will take a concentrated effort by drivers to be able to scrub tires AND stay close enough they can pair up before the last couple turns. If the drivers and workers can get together and agree when/where everyone will scrub single file, and when/where they will pair up and stop scrubbing it would probably go a long way towards resolving the issue.

My .02 from the peanut gallery.

Mike
 
Well FWIW, I have had to signal to the Pace Car to pick up the pace as cars were accordianing behind it (AKA rear-ending each other) and also when cars were almost stalling out as the pace was waaaayy too slow.
I have also had to signal to the stragglers to get a move on as they were almost out of sight of the pack.

There are some tracks where the starter can't see a whole large grid on approach to the S/F so if the main part of the grid is tight and orderly, the green should come out, and the stragglers are gonna get left behind. (unless there are racers like Mr. D. and Mr. S. that sometimes just love starting from the back of the grid for the hell of it and they aren't behind for long)

This peanut gallery agrees as well. 40 MPH would work.

Mike_, as for a point where cars should start pairing up.....is this something that could be put into the clubs sub-regs as each track is different? And since the races are all on Sunday afternoon, is this pairing up point something that could be clarified at the drivers meeting like the blend line rule is?
 
Lynn Rimmer said:
Mike_, as for a point where cars should start pairing up.....is this something that could be put into the clubs sub-regs as each track is different? And since the races are all on Sunday afternoon, is this pairing up point something that could be clarified at the drivers meeting like the blend line rule is?
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I think working out a track specific set of guidelines is a great idea, and covering it during the drivers meeting has the best chance for success. I like it.
 
Agreed. Each track is run by a different club with a different Pace Car Driver, and quite possibly a different Base Comm protocol. At PIR it is normal procedure as the Pace Car communicator reports locations, we'll spot the last car in the grid at T6 so the driver has some mental picture of how things have panned out of Pre-Grid. Then, barring anything that might hold off the start they'll go/report 'lights-out' at T9, adjusting the speed to 'pack' the field at nearly any point, I suppose, but usually by the time they go into T11, it's ideal to have everybody within hollerin' distance to negotiate through T12 where Pace Car exits and releases the field to the Starter's orders (still not quite defined, but I'm lookin'). I've been watching/listening to them for many years, and at least that much is consistent.

I think that Pace goes 'lights-out' at T6 at PR. Somebody can correct that.
 
Ken Killam said:
Agreed. At PIR it is normal procedure as the Pace Car communicator reports locations, we'll spot the last car in the grid at T6 so the driver has some mental picture of how things have panned out of Pre-Grid. .
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I Agree Also..

And talking about PIR...
The T6 station needs to be moved to track left so the drivers can see it...
Also add a station on T5...

John Rissberger
# 10 Camaro A/S Oregon
ICSCC & SCCA

The People in White Thank You !
 
John, we usually don't have enought trn staff to man an extra turn and Turn 4 has great visibility through there.

Turn 5 has a station there, usually used on those long ago pro weekends, but there has been a fair bit of talk about could we move Turn 6 flagging station to Driver's Left just before the cars turn left heading into Turn 7/8.

A slightly raised platform driver's left and the flaggers could see what was happening in the dip just before 7. As it is right now even, we can lose cars or not know if they are on track or off even from the flagging stand at 6.

The current Turn 6 is not only aways off track, but when the sun hits it just right you can't see the damned flag no matter what color it is.
 
My $.02 is that, if a driver can't pull his/her head out of his/her ass enough to realize they're dropping well away from the pack on the pace lap, to hell with 'em. Of course, if I was gridded behind Cranial-Rectal Driver, I'd probably beat 'em with a tire iron post-race (metaphorically speaking, of course).

(On a related note: Drivers, if a FCC comes out, do NOT drop your speed to 15MPH and dawdle around the track. Yes, go slowly (SLOOOOOWLY) near the scene of the incident, but otherwise GO! and catch up to the pace car and the field it's trying to collect. Please.)

The pace car should set a a slow-ish pace for the first half to 2/3 of the lap, both to give large grids a chance to enter the course and time for everyone to scrub their tires. After that, a slow increase in speed to 40+ as the cars form up and get ready for the start. Once the pace car pulls off, the pole sitter maintains that speed until the green.

There's no disadvantage to slower classes in a group because their distance from the pole sitter shouldn't affect their start, even if the front takes off on 'em, because they should still be close to each other. If you're way in the back of the group AND widely separated from the bulk of your class, then maybe you should try harder in qualifying...
 
You need to stand in the split T6 DL and look at it from the other side of the fence, John. We would need to flag over the catch fence there, in order for the Yellow Flagger to see the exit of the turn. I realize that the call lately has been to move it back to where it was years ago, but there's a hill with the barrier, and catch fence in the way now.

What does need to happen is to impress upon all flaggers to hold the flags up in the air at T6 instead of lazily down in front of the box. I mean it's only been there for over a decade now.

But we digress...
 
Lynn Rimmer said:
John, we usually don't have enought trn staff to man an extra turn and Turn 4 has great visibility through there.

Turn 5 has a station there, usually used on those long ago pro weekends, but there has been a fair bit of talk about could we move Turn 6 flagging station to Driver's Left just before the cars turn left heading into Turn 7/8.

A slightly raised platform driver's left and the flaggers could see what was happening in the dip just before 7. As it is right now even, we can lose cars or not know if they are on track or off even from the flagging stand at 6.

The current Turn 6 is not only aways off track, but when the sun hits it just right you can't see the damned flag no matter what color it is.
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Thanks Lynn,

The drivers have been requesting for over 2 years now at the Saturday Drivers Meetings to have T6 moved to Drivers Left.

But, so far the issue has not been taken up by people in charge to get it moved. This is a matter of safty and needs to be addressed.

Steve A.
My head is not in a dark place. Try taking the green flag with me some time when the green flag is dropped and we are still in T11 and can not pass because T12 has a yellow showing...

John Rissberger
# 10 Camaro A/S Oregon
ICSCC & SCCA
 
Sounds like the clubs needs to get the starter(s) and the pacecar drivers to read this thread. Please.
Steward could do a recap in the newsletter?

It really only works well when everyone is part of the (same!) team. It all comes down to some consideration of others involved and taking responsibility for our own actions. The drivers especially need to pay attention to how their actions (position, spacing, etc.) effect everyone behind them and make sure to avoid the aforementioned "tire-iron" incident....

I note that Steve is proposing that the pacecar do the first part of the track slower and speed up, which is different than pretty much anything that's been stated as procedure so far. As long as the pacecar doesn't go too slow, this actually is reasonable. This allows for cars leaving grid to have a chance to close up to a reasonable following distance and still have time to scrub tires adequately (as scrubbing adds time to travel the same distance).

Pacecar--note that if the leaders are crawling up your bumper while scrubbing tires, you're probably too slow. I've also had a pacelap that was so fast that 1/2-way around the track, while scrubbing, I actually backed off 'cause the field was so spread out, and it was hard to scrub and keep up at the same time.

It sounds like having the polesitters talk with the pacecar driver pre-race is a really good idea.
 
john_rissberger said:
The drivers have been requesting for over 2 years now at the Saturday Drivers Meetings to have T6 moved to Drivers Left.
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My edit: [Some] drivers have been requesting for over 2 years now at the Saturday Drivers Meetings to have T6 moved to Drivers Left.

I still don't understand how this is really a problem. Yes, it's WAY the hell off track, but it's NOT a safety issue because you CAN see T4's station for 4 & 5 and you CAN see T6's flags IF you're looking from T5 toward turn-in for T6. Really.

john_rissberger said:
Steve A.
My head is not in a dark place. Try taking the green flag with me some time when the green flag is dropped and we are still in T11 and can not pass because T12 has a yellow showing...
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I've been way back there in the past. My question for the flag-folks is, Why isn't that yellow pulled when the green comes out at S/F? My guess is it is, or at the least should be.

Edit: Even with a 50+-sized grid, nobody should (or even could!) be in T11 when the green flies IF the pace car and ALL drivers have done their jobs properly and we're even CLOSE to being in a double-file line.
 
Karen Stimson said:
I note that Steve is proposing that the pacecar do the first part of the track slower and speed up, which is different than pretty much anything that's been stated as procedure so far. As long as the pacecar doesn't go too slow, this actually is reasonable. This allows for cars leaving grid to have a chance to close up to a reasonable following distance and still have time to scrub tires adequately (as scrubbing adds time to travel the same distance).
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I think it was actually Richard that proposed that, way back near the beginning of the thread. I thought it was a clever idea, as it A) lets us have a faster run behind the pace car to take the green without having to speed up as we get closer to S/F, which seems to encourage the speed up/slow down accordion thing we all seem to hate, and B) still gives everyone in a large group the chance to leave pre-grid, get by the splitter, and scrub tires, without also having to race to the pace car.
 
All yellow flags are supposed to pull down as soon as the green is thrown. If you witness delay it is usually only because of a communication delay (i.e. T8 would only know when the green is thrown through the announcement from Base Comm), then that turn's communicator tells the flaggers. One reason it's important to have flaggers and communicators within hollering distance from each other. Sure is hell being human sometimes.

I really don't disagree with T6-left being a well exposed flag location, but the reason that the flag station was moved in the first place was because of the chain link catch fencing that they put up many years ago when they replaced the armco. There was then, as there remains a lack of complete visual track coverage (entrance-exit-T7) when flagging from the ground. That hasn't changed, and actually with the new configuration it's worse that it was for visibility down to T7 & into T8. That is an important area that the T6 crew must keep covered... to be safe. Some drivers have a problem seeing the flags, some don't (I have asked around). I agree that the "Minimum Security" location is not ideal, but still better than the alternative.

Somebody have an extra Turn Station tower that we can use? There are other stations that need upgrading also.

If we had a tower built to hold 3-4 people up high enough to sufficiently cover the territory, then the station could be functional. Right now it's called Alcatraz for very good reason. It's only good for a response/safe haven as things stand. This comes from my hanging around there in Safety-Lite more than a couple times. Photographers like it too.

It's nice when we have enough people to run T5 and/or T7 too, but we haven't been able to train enough people to cover those position yet. I see more new faces, some only once, or twice, but sometimes. Keep pulling them in you guys. The safety of YOUR racing depends on it.

So, I'm not totally disagreeing with you John, but you have to get out of the cockpit and work the area to see how functional it really is in the whole scheme of what F&C must attempt. I certainly wouldn't expect anybody to consider the opinion of the previous ORSCCA Chief of Flagging and Communication of the last eight of his 26 seasons working this track. I earned my license too.

Come and look for yourselves. Enduro's coming. If you're not racing, ask Dan Wilkins for T6.

But we were talking about the pace car/Starter procedures being compatible with the views of the drivers, so I'll repeat what's been said three times already. Talk to the Pace drivers, get their take. Find out what the Starter thinks is good 'enough' for the field to get the green. If you want the best of both worlds, talk to Tim "Sterling" Stanley.

Then tell them what they will need to do to make you happy. Do it at the social Saturday night, and discuss it at the Meeting for Drivers Sunday pre-races too. Eventually something compatible will evolve.
 
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Ken Killam said:
........ only know when the green is thrown through the announcement from Base Comm), then that turn's communicator tells the flaggers......
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MY station almost always rolls up the double yellow once the last car is by on the 'assumption' that we are going green. If not, plenty of time to unroll it again.

Simple fix... (don't know why it isn't done now)... Have starter(s) announce on NET they are waving green instead of a 'delayed' from race central. Although it breaks the pace/first lap radio silence thingy.. not a big deal if it's just a quick starter announcement which gets ALL yellows down.
 
Well sure, Richard. Even if they have to go around again (minus the Pace Car) you'll only need the one yellow. Spread that technique around when you have new people, and eventually there will never be another dbl yellow held up too long.

So since we've slipped into flagging and are still dealing with procedures that relate to initial and subsequent starts, how about those waving, and back-up white flags, huh?

How are those working out for you?
 
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How about each club providing a "Pace Car Cheat Sheet" as sometimes we don't have the same Pace Car Driver and some Pace Car drivers that have little to no experience.

I have done a cheat sheet for flagging, condensed version, that is handy as a reference.
A Pace Car one shouldn't be that difficult.

THEN each racer could have one (pdf would work great) and now everyone's on the same playing field.
OK now it sounds like a lot of work.
Any volunteers???
We have all winter with dust bunnies collecting on the steering wheel.

We've gone 4 pages for this thread so this seems to be rather an important issue.
 
How long did it take for the pole sitter to accelerate to 40 from 25? How long were some of the pack in third gear?! The two do not equate.
Everyone wants to scub tires and put some heat in the brakes, I get that, but by a certain turn everyone should be two by two and within a car length of the car in front. At portland, with a group that size it should be at the entrance to the back straight, in my opinion, but you still see cars scrubbing tires half way down the back straight. Regardless of pace car or pole sitter speed, how does anyone think that a group that size could form up prior to the start with that going on? Can't blame that on the pace, which I believe needs to be little faster....
 
jeff_remfert said:
...... but by a certain turn everyone should be two by two....
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I vaguely remember hearing a 'long time ago' (and only once) that tires scrub/brake warm up weaves are to be completed by Turn 5 at Pacific. From there on, it's get formed up. But, I must admit that was 'way back' in the days when the S/F line was in the Turn 9 area.

Surely today, that should be completed by the exit of Turn 8 and everybody working on forming up.
 
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