Now about that Group 2 black flag...

Bill Bonsell

Bill Bonsell

Well-known member
First, this was the second of three Conference races for me to be black flagged with a subsequent original re-gridding. Secondly, I am extremely glad that Duane is okay. I was running in car video and here is my time line on the race and I will follow it up with a question. I keep a digital clock in the car which was left over from the April enduro. I started solidly mid pack - Row 8 I believe.

2:13 Green, green, green
2:15 I pass start/finish still holding mid pack completing lap 1- yellow at 1 due to someone blowing the chicane.
2:16 Double yellow is displayed at T6...though video shows it might have been out at T4 (I suspect everyone except the #57 has passed start/finish) A lap or two behind the pace car follows.
2:21 Black flag and all stop in grid- red flag at start/finish
2:53 Back underway behind pace car (back to original grid position...some drivers get the "lucky dog pass").
2:56 Green, green, green
3:17 I take the checker

I guess my question on this relates to the re gridding which took 32 minutes. I suspect longer than it took to drag the #57 into the paddock after his T12 exit into the tires. What actually constitutes an official lap? I could not find any answer in the rule book. Section 708 B states "if stopped on the first lap a complete restart will be used with original gridding". Do all cars have to make a complete first lap in order for the race to be official. It would seem to me that just about everyone completed lap 1 when the double yellow came out. I am not questioning the use of the black/red flag, but rather the re-gridding and the 32 minutes it took for hard working grid workers to sort it all out. I know of one competitor whose car overheated resulting in his withdrawal from the race. The rules seem unclear as to whether engines must be off. Thank you to the workers for offering bottled water while we sat. It was appreciated!!

Unlike the May Group 2 race where there were incidents in T2 and T3A resulting in a very early black flag, the #57 incident occurred near the end of the first lap with a solid waving yellow I suspect for those coming up behind Duane. I suspect nearly everyone, if not all, passed start finish before the double yellow was displayed. I appreciated the additional 20 minutes of race time after the restart but want to understand why that first lap was not considered completed. This is only my second year, and I have always been the inquisitive type and am always asking questions....my wife says it's maddening sometimes.

It was a great weekend.....great weather, great racing and a worthy cause. My son (#426) left immediately with his Uhaul and car to Norcal....I will miss him and thanks to all who encouraged him on his way up through the novice ranks to his area license........:smile:
 
702.b said:
If, due to an emergency situation, it becomes necessary to halt an
event which is less than 50% completed, the event shall be restarted
upon cessation of the emergency and a total of twenty minutes of
racing completed. If the event is more than 50% completed, it shall
be ruled as completed and positions will be awarded as of the end of
the lap preceding the lap in which the race was halted. (Note:
Positions determined by this process subject to provisions contained
in 702. C.).
Click to expand...

And the rule specific to Group 2 last weekend:

708B said:
In the event of a race stoppage the race shall be restarted in single file,
in order of the last complete lap prior to the stop. If stopped on the first
lap, a complete restart will be used with the original gridding procedure.
Click to expand...

Now I don't know if ALL the cars passed start/finish before they threw the red flag but considering, from my view point in the T1 grandstands, that there were several passes under double yellow I think re-gridding the entire field was the best option. Somebody had to "make a call" and since we weren't at a track were everything had to be shut down by 5pm (like PR), I think it was a good call.
 
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A racing lap is completed as soon as a car goes past S/F (timing loop) after the green flag. All cars crossed that line for the first time as they came up to, and fell in behind the pace car as it was deployed quickly and caught up the leader. Then ALL cars that didn't go into the pits were brought around, and to a stop on the front straight. One racing lap had been completed. FCY does not negate the lap.

I've watched things get messy (not just Conference races) when a FCY comes out, and before the Pace has had a chance to bring the whole grid across the S/F (timing loop), a Black Flag All is called, and cars that are not yet across the line go into the pits, and then the Pace car brings in with the rest of the grid after they've completed another lap. For the purposes of this example, we'll pretend that there were no PUYs.

That can screw things up (T/S wise speaking), because then all of the cars in Pits in front of the Pace Car are not on the same lap as the rest of the field and must be brought around to the back of the grid (when that might become convenient) to re-start properly. Situation avoided with Base Comm waiting for the field to pass once, then execute. Sometimes things get a bit overwhelming all of a sudden. The full picture may not be realized until the dust settles. That's racing.

Training, training, training. Practice, practice, practice.
 
Colin...

I understand what 708B states regarding a race stopped on the first lap via a BF (as it was at PR in May)....my question really asks what constitutes a completed first lap. All competitors going by start finish...the leader...80% of the field. I would guess Sunday, just about everyone if not all, passed start/finish before a black flag was ever displayed, because lap 3 was under FCY with a pace car. The BF was justified because of worker safety concerns and the location of #57, but it seems the re-gridding was not justified in this instance and just caused much additional work and stress for the grid workers trying to sort everything out. And yes, there were some passes made under double yellow at 4 and 5 but those could have been dealt with as they always are. A single file restart with on track position would have been the better call IMO. I only saw one car pass under yellow from my advantage and that was between 5 and 6....

Again, my original question really was about what is an official 1st lap. If you can point me in the right direction, it would be appreciated. Thanks as always...and I enjoyed watching your Group 5 effort.

Bill


Just my take on things from my mid pack view.
 
It's no 'rocket science' mystery. As soon as the first car goes across it has completed the first racing lap. It's not a matter of how many, or what % of cars cross. Imagine trying to do that calculation.

All subsequent cars are completing their individual first racing laps, but it only takes one. And I doubt that anybody will find some micro-definition beyond that.

Remember. It was drivers that made the rules. Don't over-think 'em... any more than they already must have been.
 
Ken....

Video clearly shows the pace car picking up the leader (Heitman) in T1 after completing lap 2 under DY with the entire field less Duane lining up single file as we headed up to T4...first black flag I saw was a yellow/black at T6 lap 3...entire remaining field stopped on track lap 3 and original gridding commenced. According to your take, lap 1 was completed and single file restart with on track position should have been the call. That is my take as well, in spite of some passes under DY....I know those would have been brought to the stewards attention, if not written up by corner workers.
 
Bill:

Your assessment is probably correct. My lap count is probably wrong other than I know for fact the the cars had gone through at least once as I was hanging around T9 taking some photos of a friend on his first upgrade race (spectating) and just as I was leaving on my way to Chicane (Outside). at the time that the wall hit call came across. The Pace Car got out pretty fast, and I continued around to get photos of the crew fixing the wall.

Unfortunately, Jason Brassfield (308, Red, SM-CW) found an electrical smoke issue and was unable to restart. But you SM guys better watch out for that second generation race worker, now driver, Pro From Dover, let me tell you.
 
My 2 cents:
Not knowing what all went into the decision to regrid the cars, I won't criticize but...
-It looks as if it wasn't necessary per the rules.
-It put drivers and cars in the bad position of baking in the sun on the asphalt for over half an hour. That, to me, is a safety issue. After sitting so long fully suited up, a body and brain gets overheated and the driver is more likely to make stupid mistakes upon resuming racing. People have different health situations, (yes, we've all passed a physical but...) and hence react to overheating at different levels.
-It evidently was not easy on the cars that had gotten a couple laps to warm up, but may not have had enough cool down. I heard one person refer to cracking a rotor during the wait. That kind of thing doesn't help to keep the racing fair or fun.
-It made a huge mess for the grid workers to sort out.

My take is that, in the future, let's only do this when absolutely necessary, and per the "first lap" rule.
Like Bill said, deal with the passes under yellow as usual, without punishing the entire field.
 
Well, since you brought it up, here goes the official story. It was a mistake, but an understandable one, and the race that did eventually happen was fair, so I'm OK with the outcome.

The events happened very fast at the time, and Control was asking for a decision from the Stewards now. #1, Control felt that continuing was unsafe, and I stand behind my workers judgement on that. So we needed to black flag. The information that we (Mike & I) had at the time was that no car had completed a lap at the point we called the Black. Remember, this all over the radio during an Alert, so things are happening fast and furious. If that was the case, then the race needs to start all over again as if it never happened. Hence the re-gridding.

Yes, the re-gridding was really rough - that's because we never do it (do you remember this happening ever before this year?!), so a system had to be invented literally with a wad of cars on the front straight. It was made worse by the fact that we had to dispatch "pace car NOW", which means pace comes right out in the field, not picking up the leader. Pace was inserted somewhere in the middle of the field, so the order was completely wrong when we did finally stop.

To my knowledge, no-one got a "lucky dog" pass on the second grid. The three cars that were late to the grid got put back at the back where they were for the first start. But remember we're doing the best we can with the chaos, so it may have happened if you saw something specific. I know we definitely tried to address the issue.

So after we got to talking about it, Mike & I were fairly sure that the leaders had crossed the start line when the **** hit the fan. If that was the case, we whould have gone FCY, get the leader to the front with wave-bys, then BFA and pull everyone into the hot pits for the clean-up. Then we do a normal FCY restart once the track's cleaned up.

Unfortunately, that's not what happened. The incident was in a really bad spot, and we needed to get control of the track right away. It was pretty chaotic as we're trying to make sure Duane was OK, no one else was going to get hurt responding to the incident, get the track under control, decide what to do going forward, and we had to do it in a couple of minutes. Mike & I made the correct decision at the time with the information we had. Unfortunately the information was flawed, but I hope you all can understand how that happened.
 
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when i got to turn 12 they had there yellow out and looking at the car i knew we would go at least FCL as i looked down the front straight i notice 4 went fcl before 1 and i could see 1 went fcl before SF yes i had not crossed yet . then FCL all came out with in about a second maybe 2 of each other. even though we had to wait to get put back into place, i was not concerned about it, i was to busy watching the clean up and load up of the car, since i was stopped right at the car.
 
Just a suggestion here, but perhaps a rule change is in order to avoid the confusion. Eliminate the regridding from the rule and throw out the restarting from scratch if the first lap is not completed. If the track is blocked, red flag. If it isn't blocked, FCY and gather the field, then take them to the pits. The trucks park in a shield position to protect the scene until the chaos is under control. Anyone over driving the situation under. FCY to be dealt with harshly (read as drawn and quartered). Anyone care to convert that to the legalese for the rules vote?
 
From my perspective, the black flag and a race stoppage was the correct call. What I though was incorrect was the re-gridding to original positions. A lap had been completed, actually 2, if not 3, if you consider the FCY's. And there were two cars which got the "lucky dog". The #14 which went off at turn 6 on the opening lap, and car #731 I think, who blew the chicane after completing 1 lap. And I am sure there were other position changes which had occurred which were negated by the re-gridding. I don't think the rule requiring original re-gridding if a black flag is thrown before any car completes 1 lap needs to be changed, but I do think the understanding of what constitutes an official start (1 lap completed) needs to be revisited by those who may have to make that decision. And yes, it was very uncomfortable sitting in the car awaiting the re-start.

I can also confirm via video that the leader Heitman was at or past SF before #57 went bouncing off the tire wall exiting 12. Also, for Tom's benefit, my video clearly shows the pace car picking up Heitman, who had gathered up the field, at T1 after the completion of lap 2. There were no waive arounds needed....the pace car was holding the field exactly as it should have been, minus a few passes under yellow, which would have been handled as normally done after the race with penalties, etc. It would have been very simple then to just hold the field, single file, in the hotpits until cleanup was accomplished and then out under yellow for a single file restart.

I certainly understand how decisions have to be made decisively for everyone's benefit, but how anyone could have drawn a conclusion based on the location of the incident and where it occurred in the field, that an official lap had not been completed (based on what I now know constitutes an official lap) puzzles me. Now if we can just keep those darn RX7's under control for a few laps, maybe these things wouldn't happen.....
 
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Bill Bonsell said:
From my perspective, the black flag and a race stoppage was the correct call. What I though was incorrect was the re-gridding to original positions. A lap had been completed, actually 2, if not 3, if you consider the FCY's. And there were two cars which got the "lucky dog". The #14 which went off at turn 6 on the opening lap, and car #731 I think, who blew the chicane after completing 1 lap. And I am sure there were other position changes which had occurred which were negated by the re-gridding. I don't think the rule requiring original re-gridding if a black flag is thrown before any car completes 1 lap needs to be changed, but I do think the understanding of what constitutes an official start (1 lap completed) needs to be revisited by those who may have to make that decision. And yes, it was very uncomfortable sitting in the car awaiting the re-start.
Click to expand...

If you read Tom's post again, you'll see that he/Mike had the call that nobody had yet crossed the line when the decision was made to BFA. Although the information about where the lead car was turned out to be incorrect, the rest happened per the rules. There's no "lucky dog" because it's a reset. Had they known that the lead car had completed a lap, events would have transpired very differently.
 
IMO the rule is sufficient as written.

It is our responsibility to read those regulations, refer to those regulations, and review those regulations before, and sometimes after incidents, and especially when obligated to the duties of Base Comm, and those other positions that would exert control over our race events.

You don't pick this stuff by osmosis, or hear-say, or "common sense" dictation. They are what they are, and we can't go running around re-writing a regulation every time somebody gets caught in ignorance of it, or it simply rears its head in the course of our operations. Remember the sudden realization a couple years ago that Conference drivers were supposed to have their number on the back of the car also? That surprised a few people that had essentially ignored that particular paragraph in the regulations.

Education. Training. Then acceptance of the responsibility to apply those controls that may be easily bandied about, or ignored without the use of that REAL reference, the ICSCC Regulations.

We're all volunteers, but that doesn't eliminate the responsibility of knowing the regulations as they should be applied when they should be applied.

I was not an official at this event, but if I had been, I would have personally contacted the proper authorities with my views as I have in so many years past. Not because I think I know everything, but because I probably just looked it up to be sure. I usually have the regs handy and refer to them.

The people in Base Comm should have those same regulations handy, yes? It's important to be responsible for the assumption of authority that is presented from that position.

<lecture mode>
"Control" is an intangible. And we can't have it without communication. Base Comm is for communicators/recorders. They act in cooperation with the Steward(s), Race Chair, and all other specialties to form a 'control' over the race event. Of course, that is my perception after observing, and acting in many of those capacities over these many seasons with Conference and other professional, and amateur racing operations, and environments.

Base Comm is NOT "Control". They only have microphones and headsets as tools to help coordinate operations. It is truly the people with the flags, fire bottles, radios, trucks, grid sheets, etc... that have the direct 'control' over events with their respective specialties using those tools of trade. The tools that WE use to control the event. All of us in a loose style of symbiosis. That's our style of race-craft.

All that we, any of us, can do is the best that we have been educated to do, and with those tools that we either bring, invent, or are provided. ICSCC provides this nifty book of regulations. It's kind hard to read in spots, and a bit confusing in others, but it is what it is. And overall, it's survived the tests of time.

How many rules can you remember having been changed in the last five years and some people STILL don't 'get' it? Think about why.
<end lecture mode>

Changing the rules every time we get bit with one isn't going to keep us from getting bit again. Reading and comprehending the regulations is the only thing that can protect us from the embarassment of these kind of situations.

Anyway, that's how I feel about it...
 
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Steve Adams said:
If you read Tom's post again, you'll see that he/Mike had the call that nobody had yet crossed the line when the decision was made to BFA. Although the information about where the lead car was turned out to be incorrect, the rest happened per the rules. There's no "lucky dog" because it's a reset. Had they known that the lead car had completed a lap, events would have transpired very differently.
Click to expand...

Seems there was ample time from the black flag call to confirm whether or not the race was "official". And even if a bit questionable, would it not have been better to err on the side of an official start and avoid the tedious and lengthy re-gridding?
 
Well, this is just your and my perceptions talking, neither of us has all the info, nor were we in a place to make decisions at the time, but for myself, standing next to pit in, the regrid seemed like a cluster of the first order. Again, that's just my perception. I do kinda wonder, though, why everybody couldn't simply be brought back into pre-grid (even if people had to come into pit out backwards) and put back into their starting positions. Seems like it would've been less confusing and faster.

Then again, it's not like anybody can practice something like that, and what seems like a good plan at the time might turn out later to suck. Ask me about how much fuel I decided I would need for the Group 4 race... :(
 
It wasn't a stop everything situation, Richard. The track was not completely blocked, but to repair the tire wall after extracating the car, and the brooms that were needed to continue a race it was brought under control and stopped properly. Stopped on the front straight as was the call and so that's where the Pace Car took 'em. Thirty feet north or south... whatever.
Here's a better idea of the area of the incident.
Well into clean-up with some tires to push into place.

Img_0380a.jpg​

We'll do better next time.
 
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OK, first thing was there was no Black Flag call.

When I called the "Alert" at Turn 12 I asked for a Pace Car NOW...Safety and Wrecker NOW. (when a turn says NOW to race control that is our way of upping the urgency)

I asked for the race to be stopped.
There were 3 trucks there, 1 broken car, and a tire wall torn apart. Cars parading around behind a pace car just adds to the mix and throws the race right in the toilet because all the race time is now gone.

Stopping the cars on the front straight to re-grid was a good spot for it as there is more room to manouvre cars around as versus the hot pits. The re-gridding issue has already been dealt with.

The Red Flag only at Start Finish was outside the ICSCC flagging rules. The whole course should have been Red Flag.
We had to send a worker out onto the track to stop cars, as all they saw was the Double Yellows and were expecting to continue behind the Pace Car and could have instead run up the back of the ones that were stopped.
The solitary Red Flag decision was not made by the Stewards. I had asked for full course Red when I saw the Starter put theirs out and was told no.

I have spent several years in Race Control handling the flow of radio traffic from several sources all at once. IT IS NOT EASY.
Serious incidents have little time to be handled and the information is coming in fast and furious.
All in all, what ever errors were made, did not change the outcome of the race and the fact is there was STILL time to have a race.

So you can read and re-read the rules til the cows come home about starts and re-starts, but the decisions are still made based on the information that is given. And yes, there will be other times that things do not go accordingly, but everyone does the best they can.
I do not think that this thread was to point fingers. It was an honest to goodness question and Bill, maybe it got answered and maybe not. Hopefully you will keep asking them. We can all learn maybe something new, by the answers.

Lynn Rimmer
ICSCC ROD Director (Communicator Turn 12)
 
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