More “fuel for the fire” on the discussion about getting out of your car in a fire.

B

Bonnie

Bonnie Healy
Yesterday I was having dinner at a restaurant with some friends and they were broadcasting the IndyCar race from Texas on their big screen TVs ... when this incident happened, I was practically jumping out of my seat, and my “get her out ... GET HER OUT ... !!! GET HER THE F OUT !!! ” comments prompted one my dinner mates to try to calm me down. What a fiasco! And this from a “pro” response team!!

But at a minimum, it does go to show how quickly disaster unfolds in a fire ... practice getting out of your car!! This happened at a PRO race, for gawd sakes!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIatXMiyZ6w

Below are four of the comments from “Motorsportforums.com” (under the very appropriate thread title “you have GOT to be kidding me”) that are bang-on about the unbelievably bad response by the safety team:

“Simona de Silvestro crashed against the wall and her car caught fire. As she slid down the track, the fire got worse. The safety crew pulled up, stared at her... stared at her some more... pulled a fire hose out... stared at her... tried to get the fire hose working (but didn't)... stared at her some more... decided that she was probably well done enough, so one of them finally started trying to get her out of the car... half-assed it... finally some guy with a fire extinguisher that he probably got on sale at Walmart starts tinkling on the flames a little bit. Luckily she just burned her hand a bit (from pushing herself up & out of the car). It appeared that she did more to get herself out than any of those clowns did. That was without a doubt one of the worst displays that I have ever seen from a safety crew. And I've seen bad crashes where the "safety crew" was made up of local guys from the volunteer fire dept and the volunteer rescue squad. Firings are in order. Without a doubt. Who is in charge of the safety crew these days, the series or the track? Who do these bozos work for???”

“I watched this again on Youtube and the head-collar was certainly the problem. Once she came to rest, she had the steering wheel off immediately, and was then trying to remove the head-collar but it wouldn't move. After several failed attempts, it looks like, eventually, the right-hand side of the collar snapped and she could sort of get out of the car. She would've been able to get out herself, I think, at this stage but because two or three safety workers started pulling on her before she was fully 'up' from her seat, that made it worse for a few more seconds. She was being yanked left when she needed to come up first and that's why it took her so long to get out. The safety team has so much to answer for this. Absolutely appalling. If that had been me, I'd have been so angry. Simona's reaction afterwards showed what a true professional she is. She was almost blaming herself for her failure to exit the car quickly. Not a lot of things in IndyCar get to me, but this most certainly has and I think something MUST be done. Rant over. ”

“Also, reminds me of Carpenter's crash at Chicago 2008. On fire, but couldn't get out until head-collar was removed. I understand this is a safety innovation, but I've always thought this would, unnecessarily, delay a driver from exiting the car. A driver should be able to remove the steering wheel, unbuckle and climb out. The radio. drinks pipe, air pipe should just disconnect if your in a hurry to get out. What I don't understand is that why do some drivers HAVE to remove the head-collar to get out and others don't. EVERY driver should be able to get out of the car WITHOUT removing the head-collar because that wastes precious seconds as was evident with Simona. IndyCar officials MUST act over this so this doesn't happen again, or remind ALL drivers to exit the car, in a fire situation, WITHOUT trying to remove the head collar. This could have been a lot worse and HVM are absolutely spot-on with their criticism of the Safety team. They should publicly apologise as well.”

“she was lucky to have not been hurt worse. from the time the first responder had his foot on the pavement until she was out of the car was about 40 seconds....but she had already been in a car on fire for about another 25 seconds with the fire coming up into her face and on one side. time to second degree burn in a top rated suit under the SFI 3.2A/20, is 40 seconds . but a heavy and hot suit.
http://www.profoxracing.com/sfi.html
http://www.circletrack.com/featuredv...ps_advice.html
I do not believe most drivers wear anything more than a SFI 3.2A/5....which is good for about a whole 9 seconds before 2nd degree burns set in......
she was lucky the fire had not gotten down inside the leg and/or body area inside the cockpit, or she would be in serious or critical condition in a burn unit without question”
 
I might go along with all the Internet criticism of the safety crew, normally. But I really cannot TOTALLY agree after watching the video.

The BIGGEST and valid criticism is of the 1st trucks fire suppression issue. Why couldn't they get the hose charged? That should be tested before the start of the race.

Now the rescue itself. Not bad in my opinion.

1.
The truck reached her 6 seconds after the car came to a stop.

2.
The 1st (and best) worker reached her 13 seconds after the car came to a stop. The BIG PROBLEM WAS NOT the "head collar" as in H&N device.

Rather, the cockpit BOLSTER. That's a piece of carbon fiber placed over the cockpit opening once the driver has entered. It's intended to improve aerodynamic flow over the cockpit AND acts as a 'head support' under high G cornering. The worker and Simona were fighting to try and get that off and couldn't (don't know if every one fastens on the same or maybe teams have different methods of securing.

NOTE:
I suspect under less trying conditions (like a raging inferno next to you), Simona can twist herself around and get in/out without removing the bolster (most F1 drivers can, but they are small guys).

Simona only sustained burns to her right hand. Which, in the video clearly occured when she was trying to push herself up out of the car.

3.
Finally gave up on that when Simona managed to get her shoulders turned sideways and UP through the bolster at which time all 3 of them grabed her and began pulling. Problem was, when her hips and legs reached the bolster once again, it was a tight fit and took some more twisting.

They had her OUT of the car 38 seconds after it came to rest. Not GOOD but not bad considering the bolster issue.

I'm guessing jerking her around pulling her out may have caused more 'hurt' then the crash.

4.
A.
Yes, that one truck crew needs to improve their equpment readiness for fire suppression.

Pretty obvious from the guy coming out of the 2nd truck with a hand held that the 1st truck must have had one too. Regardless of having the hose, somebody should have come out of that 1st truck with a bottle in hand to start suppression.

B.
Bolster fastening and method of quick removal on ALL cars needs to be examined.

C.
After the 2nd truck arrived and got its hose out, the fire was knocked down in 6 seconds. If only the 1st truck had been that good this never would have made the Internet.

D.
The 1st guy to her deserves some Kudo's for sticking with the task even in the heat of the fire.


ONE THING REGARDING ICSCC:
Last weekend at the SCCA double national on Monday morning it was announced by the Stewards (due to the Sunday incident) that E-crews would NOT roll onto the track to respond until the pack was either black flagged and off or, under control of a pace car with a double yellow.

The Simona incident is an example of why I DID pipe in at the meeting and expressed my very big concerns about that. Didn't like the idea and stil do not.

That delay of getting cars in the pits or up with Pace Car could delay the E-crew departure for the scene by a GOOD 1.5 to 2 minutes! NOT a good idea from a safety stand point when a roll over or fire are involved. The turn workers can only do so much with the tools they have.

Everybody is screaming on the Internet about the Simona thing. Remember from the time the car stopped until she was OUT of the car with E-crew help was only 38 seconds. Imagine the screaming if there's a 3 minute delay in the E-crew arriving!!

I hope this doesn't happen with ICSCC.
 
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Wait, what? If I'm in trouble, help doesn't come until the race is stopped or paced? How can -- what the -- really?

I'm not sure I can fault the first truck at Simona's car. Even if they did test the rig in the morning, there's nothing saying it doesn't fail later in the day. Sometimes, equipment fails. That's why two trucks showed up, isn't it?

How can these people fault someone who has volunteered to jump into a fire and help pull another person out -- and actually does it when asked? That guy didn't hesitate; he did his job. Fussing with the equipment would've been the wrong thing.

Don't the IRL cars have on-board fire suppression systems? I couldn't see any evidence of the on-board system doing anything during the duration of that incident.
 
Being in the fire and rescue business as a professional for 20 years, it's my opinion that this whole deal went almost as good as can be reasonably expected considering the practical realities already articulated.

If anybody expects better than that, you should adjust your expectations. Racing is a very dangerous business, particularly with regards to fire. The first hose line could have been better no doubt, but equipment failures do happen, with no notice, even after being tested, and at the worst possible times.

She walked away with some minor burns after crashing into the wall at 200 mph, and a flammable liquids fire in a race car with devices that make self or assisted extrication difficult under benign circumstances. That's a success story.
 
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mikeblaszczak said:
1,
Wait, what? If I'm in trouble, help doesn't come until the race is stopped or paced? How can -- what the -- really?

2.
Don't the IRL cars have on-board fire suppression systems? I couldn't see any evidence of the on-board system doing anything during the duration of that incident.
Click to expand...

On #1:
I TOTALLY agree with you. This is crazy stuff delaying the 'start' of an E-crew response until the pack is up with a pace car or in the hot pits. Ricky Lee was NOT at the SCCA double and I'd hope nothing like this gets started in ICSCC. It's a serous increase in 'risk'.

On #2:
YES, they do have fire suppression systems. But, as with all formula cars, the nozzles are pointed at the engine compartment, fuel cell area and the drivers body.

The problem with the Simona fire was, it was "outside" that zone of fire control system. Clearly a bad rupture in the oil cooling system (oil coolers and hoses in the side pods) leading to initially an oil fire then the body work caught. As I'm sure you're aware they run methenol fuel and a fuel fire would have been invisible.

She didn't sustain burns until she put her hand outside the cockpit to push heself up out of the car. Perhaps her helmet was getting warm but it's obvious she didn't set off the fire system. Maybe, just maybe if she had, there would have been enough of an 'out flow' from the body work to knock the oil fire (outside) down. Who knows.

As a side note:

Simona is ONE CLASSS ACT!!!
Unlike a certain 'other' female driver would have reacted, Simona's comment was "I (AS IN SHE) couldn't get herself out of the car quick enough". No blame on others, no finger pointing, just simple acceptance of some responsibility for what happened. CLASS ACT.
 
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All good points, ekiM.

I say no major failures. Just a few things that might have led to a quicker application of the tools that they had upon arrival to the scene. Perhaps a couple of priority issues with individuals going one way when they might have gone another.

The guy with the first portable (fire bottle), set it down to pull the pin (he's the guy at the nose of the car with the 'butt'. He then moved to the left side of the car where the driver was being extracated (no opinion on style, because those guys are just as anxious as the people in the stands), he went for the part of the car that the driver was pushing herself up at. This didn't do much for the main part of the furnace, but the first place to hit is in and around the driver. I say 'in' and around, because if any of you are inside a cockpit with fire at your elbow, you should expect a blast of WATER bottle to make your suit even that much more resistent (and cool). Then aim goes to the closest lick of flame.

That may seem somewhat backwards, but might explain in part the difference between fire extinguishing, and suppression. At this point, I would be suppressing the fire to support the extraction of the driver. But I'm not going to do that with a 1.25" pressurized hose. Once the driver is cleared, then GAME ON! DEATH TO FIRE!

You bet they'll be looking at the tapes, and be doing some personal reflections on what they may have done differently, but until one has had to deal with a situation like that directly, for real, in your lap, right there in front of you.... what tool will you have in your hand?

I'm very happy that the driver was safe enough not to be seriously injured. Whatever your name might be at the time.
 
Having watched our safety crew in action, I doubt that the dictates from a Steward (no disrespect inteded there) will prevent any of our teams from responding immediately with a car on fire. Likewise, at least in Conference, there's evidence of fellow drivers coming to the aid of driver's in trouble...

As for the incident referenced here, the guy with the extinguisher wasn't ready. He looked ready initially, but then realized the pin (or something) was still engaged in the bottle. That may be due to a lack of practicing or a lack of experience.

I am a bit surprised that they weren't peeling off the driver's suit right away thoiugh. Radiant heat in these suits is just as dangerous as being exposed to the flame directly.
 
Ya know, there was another thread somewhere recently with offers from drivers to use their cars for demo purposes for extracation. (on it's lid or wheels doesn't matter)
There was also something mentioned about a re-fresher for "Popping the Bottle".

IRDC, TC, Cascade, NWMS, SCCBC ... all face the same potential for bad.

Here's a suggestion.....how about an "ALL CLUB" training/refresher at a central place. Seattle springs to mind as it is central to most of us. A Sunday might be doable for quite a few people. And yes, I know crazy schedules, but we all have access to CACC, SCCA, SOVREN, ICSCC calendars.
Is anyone interested in helping making this happen????
There's still alot of racing (all sanctions) left for the season.
Can we make somewhere around end of July or first part of August work???

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. There's been a lot that has happened lately, I feel we should be pro-active on this issue.

How about all suggestions being emailed to me and then once we can align all the starts (ie: schedules) we can then post it on the forum?????

Anyone????

Lynn Rimmer
ICSCC ROD Director
(lynnrimmer@shaw.ca or rod_director@icscc.com)
 
mikeolsen said:
.....I am a bit surprised that they weren't peeling off the driver's suit right away thoiugh. Radiant heat in these suits is just as dangerous as being exposed to the flame directly.
Click to expand...

Actually, except for the last few seconds when they were jerking her out of the car (really bad style points there) she was protected from the heat by the cars carbon fiber tub.

BUT I must admit your idea would have added greatly to the entertainment content of the video :) :) :) Thumbs up on that one.
 
As per my previous post......aligning the stars and such. "ALL CLUB" response re-fresher/training

July 25th Sunday seems to be open (unless I missed something)
I only checked NW Region SCCA, Oregon Region SCCA, ICSCC, CACC, Sovren calendars, Portland Historics.

Whose up for it?
 
Lynn Rimmer said:
As per my previous post......aligning the stars and such. "ALL CLUB" response re-fresher/training

July 25th Sunday seems to be open (unless I missed something)
I only checked NW Region SCCA, Oregon Region SCCA, ICSCC, CACC, Sovren calendars, Portland Historics.

Whose up for it?
Click to expand...

The only thing I know of in the northwest is Chump Car in Spokane.
 
Halloween Chump Car at PIR.

We can let them decide which one we torch for practice... Hmmmm.

I remember someone from around the PDX area was considering the donation of a misused CW tub (BMW?), but nothing further on that.

Something after the Saturday 7 hr show, perhaps?

I dunno, it sure seems like a lotta work for somebody...

10 seconds, I'm tellin' ya. I want you outta that car in TEN seconds, that it.

How many have timed themselves so far that we've talked in other threads?

I know you have...
 
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Ken, waiting til the end of the season seems a bit counter-productive.
As it being a lotta work for someone.......ya, maybe to set up the first one, but what the hey.
We've already had offers of vehicles.... NO NO NOT TO BURN!! but what things to attend to for extracation.
Our fire training doesn't need something of the scale of a burning car. Basic appropriate flamable liquid on even an oil drum lid works. Using that, everyone can get hands on with instructions, learning what to watch for and how to suppress the fire properly. Might help some get over the fear of actually using an extinguisher.
I still think it's worth doing and we do have a window of opportunity.
 
As one of the E-crew that was at the "Turn 3 thing". I can say personally that the risk to us when we respond has increased greatly. It's hard to do the job, when you're worried about getting run over. I can see two things that could happen, we can wait until we feel we are safe to be on track, or there could be no E-crew at all. Both not the best thing that could happen, but we are vol. also. I take some risk on the e-crew, but when it gets to great I'll go back on a turn. Ron
 
show_73 said:
.....I can say personally that the risk to us when we respond has increased greatly. It's hard to do the job, when you're worried about getting run over.....
Click to expand...

And I suspect the reason you feel that way is a result of the 'relative' lack of respect for corner flags shown by drivers. Hopefully that can be addressed so we all feel 'fairly' safe responding to disabled's.
 
Can you do the fire extinguishing practice during a race weekend, say, at the end of the day on Saturday--dinner and a show?

That way you already have people there and they don't have to make a special trip somewhere. Also, you could do it at each race to cover those who hadn't done it yet, or weren't comfortable yet.
 
Thank you Karen, that's what I wanted to suggest.

Lynne, I would love to attend a safety response refresher session, but unfortunately July 25th is the Edmonton Indy and that’s where I’ll be (along with quite a few of the other regulars).

What about Saturday night at the Seattle Conference weekend July 31/Aug 1? There’s usually a good number of us attending from Canada and an equally good number attending from Portland. Or is there something else in Portland that weekend?

“If anybody expects better than that, you should adjust your expectations.”

Randy, as I did express the opinion it should have been better than that, after your comment I feel kind of silly, so guess I’ll expand. Any fire training I’ve had, the FIRST thing you have in your hand when you head to a car on fire is a bottle. With Simone's incident, initially when the safety truck arrives all four get out and start fiddling with the hose on the front of the truck before one of them goes to the car on fire, leaving three of them still trying to get the hose unrolled and working ... shouldn’t one of the three have grabbed a bottle? Even the guy at the car is madly gesturing for them to get over. Then when one DOES finally grab a bottle, for whatever reason ... it doesn’t work! And neither does the hose!! Then the second truck arrives, again all four jump out and go for the hose at the front of the truck, but thankfully one guy DOES grab a bottle and immediately sprays that onto the fire, which allows them to start to try to extricate the driver while they’re still trying to get the second hose working. So yes, for a pro race, I do expect better than that, both in terms of the equipment and in terms of the method of response. Watching it on a tiny little “YouTube” screen doesn’t do justice to what it looked like on a big screen. It seems to me that if three or four bottles had immediately been popped onto the fire in the area directly surrounding the driver, they could have taken more time in extricating her – as it was, she’d been in there with the fire raging for so long, they had to yank her out any way they could. As soon as that first bottle is popped, the flames immediately surrounding the driver are suppressed.

I’m an amateur, NOT in the business, so I’m undoubtedly way off base – but that’s how I saw it. I would critique myself in exactly the same fashion. Most important things I’ve learned at the racetrack, I’ve unfortunately learned from doing WRONG the first time. I think there will be expectations in the future for a better response, especially from professionals, whether that’s in HOW they respond or the equipment they use.

I give an endless amount of credit to ANYONE who fights fire, it flat out terrifies me – if it were me she’d rolled towards, I’d probably have passed out from fright ... but these guys are expected to know how to deal with it, and in my humble opinion, they didn’t seem to.

Back to the training thing ... Lynne, my fear of fire was eased somewhat in a training session way back when, when they lit a pan on fire and we were shown how to approach and put it out. It was reassuring to see that a bottle held in my hand was able to extinguish a fire.

The other thing I'd like to learn more about is the head restraint thingy they're talking about - I have no idea how to get a HANS device hooked or unhooked, to the driver, the car, whatever ... so that's another thing I'd like some lessons on. There are two Seattle weekends left; maybe we could do fire one weekend, and extrication the next? I think trying to get folks to show up on an off weekend (of which there are very few) is probably going to be hard to pull off.
 
Bonnie, my comment absolutely was not directed at you, or anyone in particular, it was just a general sentiment. The discussion is very important, especially when conducted with objectivity.

I simply cannot stand the over the top negativity that serves no purpose whatsoever that the typical forum allows by way of anonymity, and maybe the first quote in your opening passage set me off. Not you, the anonymous idiot. Heck, even Robin called it amateur hour on wind tunnel. That's an unwarranted, and frankly, a cavalier statement that's all too easy to make when it's not his ass in their shoes trying to do their best, and it diminishes my opinion of him, not the safety crew.

Could they have done better? Of course. It's the nature of people drawn to high risk activities to continuously strive for perfection, and I'm sure this crew is no different. Analyzing the tactics and SOPs is a great idea.
 
Thanks Randy.

I should share my tried and true method of fire response. Any time I've heard the "moving alert!" call when I've been out on a turn, I immediately start reciting my mantra ... "PLEASE don't stop here, PLEASE don't stop here, PLEASE don't stop here" ... and it's worked! Every time! But I know there's always gonna be a next time ...
 
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