ITX in 2011 discussion here:

colin_koehler

colin_koehler

Great SCOTT!
Well, this is year 2 for the provisional class in group 2 known as ITX.

I would like to invite the:
ITA prep Neons
ITA prep BMW's
ITA prep Nissans

To come give ITX a try in group 2 for some spectacular 2nd run group racing!


I also have a proposition:

I would also like to propose to those of us who meet the ITX regs make an exception for some specific cars that don't quite meet IT criteria and that these exceptions made simply by the act of agreeing not to protest their participation. These are those cars:

-TKolbo's Jetta
-Jon Bonforte's Golf
-Porsche 944 Cup cars

If these inclusions are well accepted and the class turns out be popular enough then I would think that adding such exceptions into the class rule making them legal for 2012, would be the right thing to do.

That is my proposition.

Discuss.
 
from my point of view the 944 cup cars may be a little to fast. With Hoosiers or the other 30-40 tread wear tires, the front of that class run as fast or faster then ITS cars run. and i thought ITS were not allowed to run ITX? maybe if they are on any of the longer lasting tires. tread wear in the 100 range.
then again if ITS can run ITX then as long as the cup car is also an ITS leagal car then it would be ok to run what ever tire.
 
Hate to burst any bubbles but to run in a class a car has to meet the rules of the class. You can't "agree to not protest". If a car is know to be not legal for a particular class (like an ITS car trying to run in ITX), it will not be allowed to run in that class. Believe me, I tried to go down this path with my ITA Nissan and getting into Group 2. In fact, it is just this sort of thing that was part of the genesis of ITX.
 
Jon's car runs EP in group 2 it should be under prepared but light for ITA or ITB depending on which golf it is. im not sure on the jetta if it fits into an IT class
 
The Jetta fits into IT and would be legal for ITX and I would love to race against Bonaforte in class. The point of the proposition, which won't work for the 944 cups cars (this year) due to what Conatore has made clear, was to take ITX and make it more "open" than what ITX inherently is, to make it more inclusive. "A rose by any other name"... ITX was just the jumping off point but we can achieve the intended goal of wider inclusion and call it by any other name we desire... We could name it "Fesitvus"... you know, a class for the "rest of us".

all kidding aside...

The point is that the 944 cup cars are not too fast for group 2 and would fit in just fine. They are not as fast as ITS cars but fast enough to stay out of the way of the SMs. Also, I know a lot of them would like to have a 2nd run group in the ICSCC and I would like to help them lighten their wallet by racing more with us!

Like Rick D has stated in the original ITX thread, a truly prepped EP CRX would be another 2 seconds faster, much faster than an 944 cup car yet still legal for group 2 so I don't see the speed of the 944 cup cars being an issue in group 2 especially as they're not much (if any) faster than a top ITA car.

Well, I'm off to read all the rules of all the classes in Group 2 to see if there's anyway to allow the 944 cup cars to come play this season... Magic 8-ball says "Chances are slim."
 
Colin the fastest 944cup cars have run low 38 or 37s at PR and 28s at PIR. i was just sayin they were to fast for ITX not the group even though i do think they are to fast for what I have always seen G2 to be. and i would look to see if Rick D was talking ICSCC EP or scca EP because they are very different. if the 944 cup cars want there own class and not fit into ITS G5 or SPM G1 or even ST in G4 and they will if they all come to ICSCC they should in my mind run G4 as their own class 944cup and be kinda like the pro3 cars are in G1
 
I think the "too fast" argument was addressed by yourself as well (see quote below) and clearly if we correctly prepped our cars (both your bimmer and the CRX's) then we could all be running 1:37's or 1:38's in Group 2. Considering the classes that are in G2 it's actually a pretty fast group, it's just that EProd or Fprod isn't popular enough to have anyone go and fully prep their cars for those rules thus the "overall" speed of G2 is artificially low.

the_driver said:
i could turn my ITA car which is about as cheaply built as possible to run EP and i would loose 350 LBS AND run true slicks or FP with just loosing 350 lbs and running the same tires i have now with just going back to stock exhaust manifolds
Click to expand...

And this was Tufer's argument:
Turfer said:
ITA cars are too fast for Group 2! Really? You mean my ITA car that is 350lbs heavier and minus 10whp than when in EProd trim is too fast for Group 2. I guess E Prod is too quick as well. And since I can run F Prod minus 150lbs
Click to expand...

Needless to say, 1:37's or 1:38's are NOT too fast for G2.

Now the last ITX thread went to sh** real quickly so I just stopped posting but I know the 944 cup cars, while being legal in ITS, are not at ITS speed thus the speed of the 944 cup cars in G2 would not be too upsetting for the crowd that's why I was trying to include them.

But, rules are rules and Conatore is right; no 944 cup cars in ITX so that dream is over.
 
For what it is worth, our current lap records are by Greg Fordahl at 1:30.299 for PIR w/Chicane and 1:38.29 at Pacific. I just had a look through my 2010 timesheets... besides Greg, only one other driver has broken into the 30's a total of 3 times. The rest of the front running pack are in the 31's and it falls off from there. These times are on the Hoosier R6.

944's are a weird deal. We can't compete at the top of ITS. In E Prod we can't run chips or headers, and later cars have a ridiculous 144lb weight penalty for 8 extra hp that early cars can get back easily anyway. My 87 would need to be decontented AND add over 100lbs of ballast as it sits. We also are governed by 944 Cup 'Prep 2' which in addition to ITS-based rules adds a cap on HP & TQ... 146 rwhp and 292 combined HP+TQ. The 944 cup series also includes a Prep1 level that allows more mods like remote reservoir shocks... but the cost for the extra performance is high and results in a performance delta between prep levels. Based on cost and the desire to keep a level playing field we stick to 'ITS' and 44Cup Prep 2 by choice.

It works because we know we are mainly competing against each other and we get some extra kicks from Jon Wilson, Ron Tanner, and the ITA E30's and miatas. But that is pretty much what we've got... right now there is not really a second run group for us.

When I first started 4 years back I did run EP and I had fun in Group 2, but I wasn't at the head of the field. I agree that as a better driver and with better prep we probably would come in at the sharp end of the group. Also from what I remember Group 2 counts are already high and adding more cars may be too much. We'll see that already this year in Group 5 as we have 3 points weekends under the Conference umbrella so we'll be adding 12 or more cars. Last year we had 58 cars in Group 5 at the Seattle CarTender race, and we brought only 8 cars that time.

Anyway, obviously not much we can do now for ITX. Just some actual real data for consideration. Our guys will generally run a second group if it is available but right now there isn't much that would be very competitive. It is possible for us to codify our rules independently ala Pro3, but really all that would do is allow us to be shuffled to a different run group, and maybe run lexan. But it really wouldn't change too much. If everyone shows up regularly and we have the 20+ car grids that we could have... who knows. We are not Pro3 but new cars are being built as we speak. That's just more money in entry fees and more fun to be had if we figure something out.
 
Last edited:
I have not raced in a ICSCC race for a while, and I am curious about this new ITX class. Where can I find the rules for a CRX?
Specifically what is my min weight?
Thanks,
Tim
 
You know, you've got people willing to bring their cars to race with us. The extra numbers are helpful for both finances and the extra excitement on-track. There's an added bonus of a "new" variety of car to watch.

Find a way to set up a class or two for the car.

Can you do a rule change to make the 944's more competitive in ITS in Conference? If we need rule changes for other cars to give them someplace to play, someone who knows the specs please start writing.

BTW group 2 has been running slightly smaller than 1 or 5 lately, and group 5 has not been overcrowded the last year or two. Bring it on.
 
Thanks Curt. I will stick to the lighter classes ( FP 2100 HC4 2150? ) since my car always seems just under weight. I have given up enough podiums over 6 lbs or less!
 
Last edited:
I don't know why anyone would want to stay in H4, unless you live in Canada. For the rest of the 13 races on the schedule you only have 1 other car in your class.


Is it too late to submit a rule change to alter the ITX ruling or re-submit it as a provisional class but with these changes:

1: Allow ITS cars but they have to add 100lbs to their ITS weight
2: Allow the Porsche 944 cup cars in their current spec.
3: Allow the ITC and ITB cars to remove 100lbs

Can I get the Porsche guys, Fordahl, or anyone else to chime in?
 
I will chime in as I'm a regular reader but not too chatty on here.

I really like the idea of being in G2 as I had an absolute blast on Friday in Spokane (sans the part where my exhaust got mangled) when racing with you guys. We had a great battle throughout and I had no idea I was in the wrong run group (party foul!).

This past weekend there were a few battles between ITA&ITS prepped cars. Colin &mark tangled...Eric & roldan had a good time among others. The ITA e30s are always great fun when they are out there.


How many active ITX cars are there?

I'm mid-pack amongst 944s but I'm also on the heavier side of things +50 lbs or more...in addition dicussions like this encourage us more to participate in events.
 
I want to approach this from the broadest, most inclusive perspective possible but I am definitely staring at the world through very tinted glasses at the moment. Right now I hate/love racing the 944's, because (like the EIP BMW's) they impede me from racing the cars that are in my class. The lap times are TOO similar. However, put us all in the same class (ITX) and poof... I will LOVE racing the 944's! In fact, if I wasn't in a championship battle I'd love racing them in G5 as is but as much fun as I had racing (Mark I think) on Sunday, all I could think was "get away from me! Can't you see Rick is getting away!!!!"

Like I said... very tinted shades, very tinted. I want others to chime to verify if the idea of expanding ITX is the right decision.
 
colin_koehler said:
... on Sunday, all I could think was "get away from me! Can't you see Rick is getting away!!!!"
Click to expand...

Too funny Colin because on Sunday, all I could think was "get away from me! Can't you see Lyall is getting away!!!!

Sorry if I messed up your race with Rick. You and I really didn't do battle until later in the race and by then I didn't think either of us had a chance to catch our own class competitor. When the PRO3 car pulled off a few laps in you lost your tow vehicle and actually fell back to me. I figured I'd rather race you than just drive around wasting tires & gas.

I qualified on old tires and so the gap to Lyall was there from the start. Totally my fault. I've learned that I need to be on his bumper before turn 5 on the first lap or else slower traffic in that section makes it nearly impossible to catch back up.

I haven't felt the need to double enter so I should study up on the ITX topic before commenting but I certainly understand your point. The same thing happens in our SCCA run groups as well.

-mark
 
Last edited:
markl951 said:
Sorry if I messed up your race with Rick. You and I really didn't do battle until later in the race and by then I didn't think either of us had a chance to catch our own class competitor.
Click to expand...

You did not mess up my race with Rick, before you were a few bimmers and before that a a GTL car in which I had to set 2 wheels off on the outside of turn 1 and lift at the start to avoid impact. Ultimately, the reason Rick got away is because he went faster, a serious problem I need to correct. In the last 3 or 4 laps that you and I battled, I had a great time because our cars had different strengths and weaknesses requiring differing strategies to capitalize on an overtaking opportunity, and this is the reason I personally don't race a spec class. I really like racing in a class where the cars are equal but have different strengths and weaknesses.

markl951 said:
I haven't felt the need to double enter so I should study up on the ITX topic before commenting but I certainly understand your point. The same thing happens in our SCCA run groups as well.

-mark
Click to expand...

ITX is essentially ITA with the only difference being that it includes ITC and ITB cars. My hopes are to expand it.

The ITX class would be more popular because it applies to all the ITA/ITB/ITC cars that aren't Hondas. However, by expanding it to include the 944's and "heavy" ITS cars it could be a lot of fun and rather popular. Also this would mean that the ITX cars in G2 would be faster than the SM's so we wouldn't be in their way either.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top