double yellow flag / full course yellow

B

Bonnie

Bonnie Healy
This message is really for my fellow flaggers.

At recent events, I’ve heard comments on how a double-yellow situation is flagged at the corner stations, specifically, criticism that a double yellow is being displayed at a corner with an incident ALONG WITH the waving yellow flag. Some folks stated the corner should ONLY be displaying the waving yellow ... so I decided to look up the actual rule, and this is what it says:

ICSCC:

Double Yellow: Displayed at all turn stations.Indicates full course yellow with the imminent deployment of the Pace Car during a race.
(a) Where local conditions do not allow racing to continue, the Pace Car will enter the circuit and lead the competitors around in a single file at reduced speed.
Every station around the circuit will display the double yellow flag.A waving yellow flag will be displayed previous to the incident(s).
In addition, the Starter shall display a sign reading “Pace Car” until the race is slowed behind the Pace Car.
A waving white flag will be displayed at the turn station preceding emergency vehicles and/or the Pace Car on the track, backed up with a steady white flag at the previous turn station.
No car shall pass the pace car, except when directed to pass by an Official in the Pace Car.
The Official in the Pace Car may wave cars by until the leader is behind the Pace Car.
When conditions permit, the Pace Car will exit the track and the Starter will permit the race to continue with a green flag.
All cars shall hold their position until the green flag is displayed.​

So, in fact, waving the yellow AND displaying a double yellow is the correct way to flag the incident, according to the ICSCC Rules. If you want the station with the incident to ONLY flag the incident, then you need to change the wording of the rule.

For the sake of interest, here are other racing organization interpretation of a full course yellow:

CACC:

D. Full Course Yellow: Great danger, slow down, no passing, be prepared to get into single file behind the pace car. A full course yellow may be indicated by the displaying of doubled stationary yellow flags by each corner station. Drivers should not rely on this distinction and must exercise appropriate caution if confronted by successive stations displaying single yellow flags, either waving or stationary. Except during a full course caution, double yellow flags should not be displayed. Yellow flags should be withdrawn when the pace car lights are turned off.

SCCA:

Message from windows saying Regulations too complex to download - !!!! [I thought that was pretty funny ...]

INDY CAR:
7.2.2.2. Full Course – Standing double yellow flags displayed at all Marshal‟s posts. Waved double yellow flags will be displayed at the post with the hazard.

FIA:
40.4 When the order is given to deploy the safety car the message “SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED” will be displayed on the timing monitors and al marshall’s posts will display waved yellow flags and “SC” boards for the duration of the intervention.
 
You are correct, Bonnie.

I think that it has been popular to assume that with the separate sentence for the waving yellow to indicate the area of incident meant to drop the double. Even though that is how it reads, I don't think that anyone is going to kick you off the planet for dropping the double in favor of a waving to illuminate the situation, especially if you don't have three yellow flags or a separate assembly of double yellow flags. We should be consistent with our regulations, however. Or at least the regulations should become consistent with our common practices.

Good fodder for the ROD meeting this fall. Take a look at how long we wave the white flag for the Pace Car (when it's really a Safety Car), AND the last car in the pack following. More fodder.

So regardless of the inverted wording of CACC, and knowing how SCCA describes the flags...

"B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – Take care, Danger, Slow Down, NO PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.
WAVED – Great Danger, Slow Down, be prepared to stop – NO PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.
DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the entire course is under yellow (full course yellow). All stations will display double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and other cars that are disabled or off pace (see 6.6.2.).
NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency area. The requirements are still the same: SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING.

The chart from 2002 describes the use of a double yellow as one standing, one waving for a incident on course. Otherwise both standing. I don't see that illustrated flagging chart anywhere but in the 2003 F&C Manual, which amazingly enough is still available in .pdf on SCCA.com. This is from a 2002 version regarding the use of the two yellow flags on a station. Keep in mind that usually there were only two yellows in any flag station at that time.

"Note: The GCR does say a double yellow will be displayed at ALL stations but if a station has an incident on the track then one of the two yellows shall be waved. Otherwise the two yellow flags will be held motionless, preferably with a space between the two yellow flags."
A steward is responsible for ordering a full course or double yellow."

So let's also keep this bit of "always been there" in mind... ICSCC PPM~~"21.3 PURPOSE - THE AIMS AND OBJECTIVES OF ROD
21.3.1 To standardize throughout ICSCC race marshalling procedures and practices in accordance with currently recognized FIA standards and set forth in current FIA publications."

Let's get these on the agenda and talk about how we want to solve for the consistency of the ICSCC regulation comprehension. It's good exercise. Thanks, Bonnie. Sometimes you just have to put it on the plate before anyone else will take a taste and form an opinion.
 
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Ideally, I think the situation should be just as it is described in the Conference rules. ALL stations double yellow – corner with the incident double yellow AND waving yellow. White flags used as described in the rule - when safety arrives, waved at the incident, standing at the preceding station for emergency vehicles and/or personnel. I do not think the preceding station should be a single standing yellow – that’s just confusing. Double yellows all around eliminates any question as to what the flag status AROUND THE COURSE is. I’ve seen situations where the cars have seen a single yellow, then a double yellow, have gone past the incident and assumed it was safe to pass, then they see the double yellow at the next station and try to abort their pass – which causes more on-track problems – just happened to me at the Ridge. If both stations had had double yellows up as well, the situation would have been made clear.

I think all our Conference courses have special double yellow flags in their flag bags along with the single yellow, don’t they? And many – most? - flag stations also have a nail in a post that you can hang the double yellow flag from.

In a worst case scenario – not enough hands, no nails in the post – then yes, the waving yellow takes precedence and should be the flag of choice. But I see nothing wrong with having a double yellow AND a waving yellow up at the corner. In fact it’s how the rule reads.

In my humble opinion, of course!
 
I agree Bonnie. In the scenario above, I think the white flag becomes just too much once the trucks are on scene. With the shortage of folks on the turns, I'd feel better is those hands concentrated on making that yellow as big and obvious as possible.
 
I need to clarify Rob ... I agree, the waving yellow is the top dog, but I DO still think we need to use the waving and back up standing WHITE flags for the emergency vehicle and safety personnel. It's whether or not there's also a double-standing yellow flag that I meant can be discretionary. In other words, there are those that have been fussed about a station showing a waving yellow AND a double standing yellow, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially now that I've read the wording.
 
My mention of the white flag pertained to the Safety Car (or Pace Car in the ICSCC venacular). But do digress. That's what discussion is for.
 
I remember a weekend at Pacific a few years ago at Turn 7.

My co-worker responded to an FM in the tire wall outside the exit of 7. I was left at the station with ONLY 2 hands trying to hold the double yellow, a waving white, a waving yellow and a surface flag. I found it rather difficult.

P.S.
STILL trying to find ANYBODY who routinely passes through the downtown Tacoma area going to or from races who could give me a ride. I'd love to help you guys out :) :)
 
Yellow flags should be withdrawn when the pace car lights are turned off.
Click to expand...

oh, THERE's an idea that'd lead to Conference Chaos!

I have to say, the waving white's really appreciated when there's an incident. Full course yellow often
means 'catch up at 7/8ths' for a really strung- out field, and knowing where Safety is on track
is a LOT of help.

t
 
Once upon a time, ICSCC did not require the Dbl. Yellows, or any full course yellow for the Pace Lap to start a race. Not to be confused an FCY to bring the Safety (Pace) Car out for situations during the race. Once the grid is set, there are no position changes allowed until the green flag a S/F.

So which book (rule set) did your quote come from?
 
So when a car falls off the track scrubing in tires, wheel falls off, engine dies,,, ect... on the pace lap we are not supposed to move up to fill their spot ????
 
That's a good question, John.

It depends on who's book you'd like to read.

The very last sentence of the pile of words in ICSCC Reg. 707, reads, "...In the event a car loses its grid position on the opening pace lap(s), the grid line (left or right) will advance forward assuming the open position."

That gives the car directly behind the open spot a two position advancement. Does that seem right to you? And the flag condition has no bearing on this situation.

If you are at an SCCA event, their rule reads like so:

"6.5.1.J. A car may not improve its position in the field after the cars are"
released from the grid for the pace lap.

Still they use a dbl yellow on their pace laps, so is that simple redundancy?

Ask your local (current) Steward if they consider that 'advancement' a conflict with passing under the yellow?

Thanks for asking.
 
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