Awarding position points for DNF

Awarding points for "Finishing" is as arbitrary as putting a postage stamp somewhere on the circuit and then declaring the winner the first person who hits it with their right rear tire. In races of all kinds someone decides on a "goal" then rules are created to insure the proper steps are performed to achieve that goal.

In Steve's race world, all of the importance is concentrated on one arbitrary point in space at the end of an approximate period of time travelling at speed left to the decision of the individual racers. If that is what the racers want then I am fine with that. I'm just trying to offer an option that might actually make racing more appealing to entrants, more successful financially to the member clobs, and safer by some small but definable amount (unlike three year old seatbelts or required H&N devices .... oops! Thats right, safety is only important when it is emotional and abstract, not when we have actual data points supporting a change. "Nuff said about THAT subject)

So perhaps the better example is the race where the winner does 18 laps and takes the checkered flag. The guy glued to his back bumper for the whole race pulls off line in turn eight on lap 18 to set up a pass for the win, runs over a chunk of sheet metal left on the track by an incident two laps before and cuts down his front tires. Car grinds to a halt on two deformed rims 100 yards from the finish line. Meanwhile, a car that finished seven laps before losing every gear but second had pulled into the hot pits halfway through the race. With six minutes left he realizes he needs to get two more laps for an official finish and last place points so out he goes for two three minute laps in fast traffic scaring the crap out of himself and everyone else on the track. He's going so slowly that after his first slow circuit he gets a black flag at start finish and has to go all the way around again where he exits into the hot pit lane has a quick conversation with the black flag station and idles across the timing line for an administrative finish 5 minutes after the checkers and takes a right out of the back gate back to his paddock spot. Because of an arbitrary and covoluted ruleset the guy that finished 9 laps, with two at dangerous speeds, beats the guy who did 17.9.

As long as the choice is ARBITRARY, how about we reward the guy who did the most distance in the specified amount of time. Lots of other organizations do it that way in many different kinds of racing. For most people it will be transparent. We are just revising the goal slightly. It's a choice between two ARBITRARY goals, so we just need to make sure we choose the one that benefits the particiants and the organizers the most. Scoring distance covered gives us the most bang for our buck while slightly enhancing safety. We are Conference - we can make things the way we want them, not the way anyone else does them. I'll abide by the decision of the thoughtful voting members of Conference. (Unless it fails, then I will abide by their decision again next year.)
 
I've got it for you Randy. Grab your Super Ken decoder ring and spin the dials to S......T.......F......U. I think thats the cypher you are looking for.

You provide us with WAY more entertainment than we could ever give you KK. ;-)
 
@Randy,

As before them, todays racers have come from street to track through different influences than many that have been involved in the ICSCC longer. There was a time when the Driver Training was the clubs venue mainly to develop and maintain the Novice drivers ranks of ICSCC with the added value of serving the community of simple folks that wanted the 'maybe one time' thrill of driving at speed on a real race track. It also served as a revenue source when well subscribed. The marquee clubs ran their track days for the same reasons, and which provided them have their own membership social activities to. Very strict on passing and any possible intimation that it was anything other than instructional/educational motor (not sport) event. It's the only way that they could afford the insurance to run in those days.

Diversification program, HPDE/PDX/EDT, so on. Today there are many participants that have made a 'hobby' of these Driver Training market diversification programs of designating groups for different levels of experience, skill, HP, whatever. People could do a DT, or two, then enter HPDEs, and such get oodles of track (day) time for not as much money as it costs to go full time real racing. Some decided that they might afford to rent, or build a real race car and expand their 'hobby' into the competitive amateur racing world.

Winning!!

Hey, that's ICSCC. The program works. It's a harsher world though. Full of disappointments, and much higher costs in both time, materials, and relationships. It's only natural that the hobbyiest might look for ways to help them justify the expense by softening the requirements of goal achievement as they have been set out by those hobbiest before them. These early participants might be considered less civil in their approach to racing. Willing to attack the hardship associated with the "SPORT", and suffer the consequences of preparations, luck, and random chance. Only the skilled survive. Pretty gritty attitudes, some.

Evolution. Perhaps it's the slowly creeping gentrification of our amateur sport. Things must be made more palatable to new levels of expectation that might satisfy the broader range of tastes that have been acquired from the deversification of ICSCC clubs' marketing approach. So is the customer always right? If they are not satisfied they'll find a new hobby, and we all feel the loss in some way. Some more than others, I suppose.

So, I characterized myself there, for my own amusement, if not yours. Bob Newhart 'phone routine' style. Only as I have for these many years, approached the driver's window of a stricken race car out on the circuit someplace, unable to continue for untold number of reasons. On foot, or in a truck, the operation is the same, assess, and resolve. Some might tell you that I have a somewhat modified professional track-side manner, but I may needs to have a towel draped across my arm... at your service, sir.

Don't we all want to satisfy everyone? But that is a long term goal that is much more difficult to accomplish than finishing every race.

Here's to keeping your drive line driving.

Thank you for your business
Larry_Potterfield.jpg
 
In Steve's race world, all of the importance is concentrated on one arbitrary point in space at the end of an approximate period of time travelling at speed left to the decision of the individual racers.
Um, nuh-uh... and, even if it were, I'd be in similar company to every top-flight road-racing organization in the world.

I'm just trying to offer an option that might actually make racing more appealing to entrants, [...]
Ya know, I hear this used as justification for all kinds of changes in Conference, but nobody ever seems to have ANY data supporting the "if we do X, they will come" theories they espouse.

So perhaps the better example is the race where the winner does 18 laps and takes the checkered flag. The guy glued to his back bumper for the whole race pulls off line in turn eight on lap 18 to set up a pass for the win, runs over a chunk of sheet metal left on the track by an incident two laps before and cuts down his front tires. Car grinds to a halt on two deformed rims 100 yards from the finish line.
Yeah, that sounds like a DNF to me. And if the sheet metal was left there two laps prior, shouldn't our straw man driver have known about it?

Meanwhile, a car that finished seven laps before losing every gear but second had pulled into the hot pits halfway through the race. With six minutes left he realizes he needs to get two more laps for an official finish and last place points so out he goes
The "administrative finish" needs to die a quick death. I'd love for there to be some sort of "120% of the class leader's pace" rule, but I think the folks in T&S would have me lynched.
 
I thought we beat this deadhorse into the ground last year, but there is obviously still a class out there with a few cars that still can't finish races. If we look at it from the perspective of the drivers who aren't in favor of compensation, or charity as it were, then it sheds a different light as I mentioned last year.
If I am in a class of say 4 cars, and I finish third while the fourth car completes only maybe 4 or 5 laps, am I going to be happy with getting 20 points for a full 30 minutes while he gets 19 for not completing the race? (This comment is based on last years proposal to do away with the term DNF in the rulebook.) You say they should be compensated for showing up to an event? Okay, well if I use up 30 minutes of fuel, tires and brakes and add to my motor and chassis wear, then where is my compensation for actually finishing and spending a lot more than he did? Receiving one more point for all the extra $$ I spent opposed to him is not gonna work for me I'm afraid.
This type of self serving rule change would adversely affect us in the number of drivers walking away because we are compensating those few who are now in a points chase they do not belong in based on their performance.
Propose a sensible rule change that could offer a few more points for a DNF perhaps, but don't try to talk the majority into accepting what is baesed on the wants or needs of only a few.
 
What's your opinion of the adminstrative finish Wes? It's really just another method of accomplishing the same objective.
 
Why not award points for all finishers. Start high and go down to 2 point for every DNS, 3 for DNF, etc?? Lets give 1 point for showing up at the track, maybe 1.5 for showing up with a trailered car.

Why?? Cause it is dumb. It would be confusing. It would solve nothing.

I see no problem with the system we have now. I have had my fair share of DNF's and DNS. Most were my fault and I feel good about not getting points. The only incident I had a DNF I felt peeved about was when I spun trying to stay out of the way of two Miatas who were competing for position at the end of a race (I was not in any contention for any position to speak of). Was still my fault cause I should have kept my line and I did not secure the starter motor solenoid wire enough.

So lets move on. The system works.
 
Not finished discussing, I'll move on when it suits me, thank you very much.

The system in fact does not work as it should, if we want to mitigate risk as much as practically possible. The current arrangement promotes the situation where cars that should be a DNF are allowed to go back out into traffic when they shouldn't be, because of whatever condition that caused them to need to use that utility in the first place.

What's "dumb" Kyle, is the intellectual inconsistency in considering the question. An administrative finish is very nearly the exact same thing as the proposal, with the safety question removed.
 
Personally, I think the current setup is fine, but everything has room for improvement.

I just don't see any more intellectual consistency (I love it when Randy throws out these terms) in the argument for the change. To be consistent the argument should also be made for awarding of points for DNS. You wouldn't want someone to be tempted to start the race with an unsound car just to get points? A likely more common scenario if you don't require a finish for points. How many people that have gone home early had cars that could have actually limped around a pace lap? But then again you also have the arbitrary definition of "start"....

I think finishing should get a higher reward than just starting.
 
While I rather obviously don't like awarding more points for a DNF than we do now, I've also never liked the idea of people parking it in the hot pits until they decide they can limp around for the checkered flag. So, returning back to something I threw out earlier, what do we think about a rule that black flags anyone who isn't doing at least 120% (as an example; I haven't done any research to ensure that particular number doesn't penalize "legitimately slow" cars) of the class leader's pace? Aside from being more work for T&S, there'd have to be some way to NOT accidentally flag someone who'd just had a slow lap because of a spin or something. Too impractical? If so, is there some way we can manage this through software (since Conference is full of software geeks)?

Or do we just have a rule that someone can't park it until the finish? It'd have to be pretty carefully worded, that's for sure.

[Edit: I poked around on MyLaps' site to see if they support a public API, but I didn't see anything. Then again, their site doesn't seem to expose everything to the casual viewer.]
 
...... until they decide they can limp around for the checkered flag......

You DO NOT have to 'limp' around endangering others to take the checker. Simply "cross" the finish line (be it on track or, in the PIT LANE) and you have "taken the checker".

BTW, cars 'limping around' at 1/4 the velocity of the 'fast guys' is something corner workers 'deal with' almost EVERY race. And we manage to inform you enough of the problem (and the slow car) to keep you all safe (so far).

I have yet to hear of a massive front to rear shunt caused by a slower car on track. Although I've seen some 'close' deals but NEVER caused by a slow car limping to the checker.
 
Perhaps I'm using a phrase that doesn't apply. Apologize if it seems snarky, I suppose I am trying to be more civil than just saying "dumb".

My meaning in over-simplified terms, is that on one hand we currently have a method of awarding points that defines a "race" as such and such. And we have a discussion about a hypothetical alternative, that for the most part functions very nearly identically, with the small but important distinction of "receiving the checkers".

Each of us has an opinion about what constitues racing, and obviously this definition varies widely. Curiously, to Richard's point, the rule doesn't stipulate *where* a person receives the checkers. Is "receiving the checkers" on pit road really a finish? Does completing half the distance and finishing on pit road really add up to a "race"?

I happen to think that the current rule allowing a single car in class, having completed 50% of the overall race leader's laps, and receiving the checkered flag (whatever that means) to earn maximum points, is but one arbitrary definition of a "race win".

Is one car in a class really a race? That's a different discussion, sorry.

Now, if we feel that there should be a method for drivers to be able to collect points when their cars are mostly unable to actually run at speed for the whole distance, which seems to be the case given the current rule, fine. I don't really care what artifice we come with collectively to facilitate people getting points.

The problem I have is the stipulation that a finish is partly defined with the requirement of receiving the checkers. The result of this requirement is that we have cars on the circuit that shouldn't be, creating an unnecessary safety hazard. The few times that I have seen this method used, there haven't been any consequences, except for one time. This one time resulted in minor injuries to two drivers. It was pure chance that the injuries weren't more severe, and it is pure chance that injuries don't occur with greater frequency when drivers choose to use this utility to collect their points.

To my point about consistency, if we are going to gnash our teeth about hypothetical risks relative to flagging adherence, we should apply the same tests and high standards to other areas of our rule book and driving behavior.

Is there really that much of a difference between completing half the distance, retiring to the paddock for whatever reason and getting points relative to other cars, and the same thing, but you drive over the timing loop on pit road after sitting there for half the race?
 
Last edited:
From a slightly different persepective...

Sunday's race had 27 PRO3 cars taking the green flag; 22 finished. There were 5 DNFs. Each of those DNFs received 3 points. In our current points system, cars that finished 19th - 22nd (in this case) all received a whopping 4 points each, or one more point than a DNF and not because they didn't drive hard or limped anywhere on the track. Quite the contrary. The top 15 cars' fast laps were all of 4 seconds difference between P1 and P15.

So if we want to get into revamping (or the politically-overused term of "reforming") our points system, I'd suggest that we take into account the larger classes as well and think about expanding the points earned...

This also brings to light our penalty system (currently under the electron microscope in another thread) whereby a racer is dinged a lap for deviant behavior. In the class example here, that penalty also earns 4 points and a car that was crashed out and scored a DNF...he gets 3 points. Under the proposed change, how would both of these situations be handled? Is it just based on laps completed? Does the proposed system diminish the effect of being dinged a lap for errant driving?

Just my $1.35...(inflation, you know)
 
Then maybe we (drivers) should sit down and look at the whole "points for racing" issue. We can talk about what a finish for points really is, cases where it shouldn't apply, how many points should be applied, and so on.
 
Randy asks: "Is "receiving the checkers" on pit road really a finish? Does completing half the distance and finishing on pit road really add up to a "race"? "

I'll repeat: "DESIGNATED" I know you guys can read, so again, and for my own satisfaction...

"C 501. The Conference has established a system of points under which a driver is
awarded points for the position in which he finishes any competition
sanctioned by the Conference. (more) "

So what's a finish?

"C 502. Awarding of points at each race.
A. In order to qualify as a finisher, a competitor must complete not less
than 50% of the number of laps completed by the class winner and
receive the checkered flag. (more)

See? The regulation says it, and whoever put it in the regulation may not be around to say, but here it is for all to comply. And I wonder whether "A" wasn't put in there (way before my time), to soften up the regs a bit. Allowing more participants to enjoy some points for their efforts.

"C 711. End of the race. The end of the race shall be marked by a display of the
checkered flag at the designated finish line. No laps will be scored after the
elapse of five minutes from the time the checkered flag was first displayed. (more)"

Okay, "designated finish line", right?

I believe these rules are the essence of what must be manipulated (besides the philosophical view of a majority of the qualified voters) to effect any changes to the points structure/table/calculations/system.

Who designates the finish line? The Race Chairman? The Steward? The Chief Starter (I threw that in there because I did at Team Continental's Tri-Cities GP. I believe that I saved a lot of carnage too.)?

So, who's to say that it can't extend all the way to the middle of the infield or out through the paddock, and into the street considering which track you might be standing at.

Thanks, Randy. Please continue...
 
Last edited:
To take some of the heat out of my post: I was referring to the first paragraph I wrote as being dumb. Not what anyone else posted.

I don't like getting points for anything other than finishing. I think if you are not running at the end and didn't run the whole race (no sitting in the pits except making a concerned effort to fix the problem and get back in it) no points should be awarded.

A system to encourage racing at the other tracks is good.
 
Last edited:
I don't like getting points for anything other than finishing. I think if you are not running at the end and didn't run the whole race (no sitting in the pits except making a concerned effort to fix the problem and get back in it) no points should be awarded.

Well, whaddya know: Kyle and I actually agree on something... :-O

:D
 
Back
Top