Upsidedown Car. Now What?

L

Littlevees

Jim Venable
Mark de Regt, a local Miata racer posted the below question on another site. Considering this could happen to anyone I reasoned it would be worthwhile discussing and especially so with the valued corner workers who frequent this site that will be able to add insight from outside the car.

Here is his question.

My son rolled his car yesterday, coming to a rest upside-down (ended my race real quickly when I saw that happen). He wasn't hurt, but he said, afterward, that the real terrifying part was when he realized the difficulty/impossibility of getting out of the car in anything like a hurry, while wearing a helmet and HANS, given the real possibility of fire when upside-down.

In an effort to perhaps plan a little for the possibility of finding myself in the same position some day, I'm interested in getting some thoughts from people who have been there and really do know the best way to do that.

Jim
"Nice Guy Jim Racing"
 
I've been there. My answer is roll close to a turn station! Ha ha. By the time I got my wits about me again, Lynn was already halfway in my window asking how I was doing.

So yes, you're pretty much stuck. But I was surrounded by the E-Crew which made me feel a bunch better. Short of a fire, I'd suggest staying right where you are until everyone decides it's safe for you to bail. The bummer was that my car was hot (with the kill-switch off), and they were nervously watch fuel leak from my stock fuel tank from the fill neck. Luckily, it was on the opposite side of the car from the exhaust. Not such a good feeling. That was enough for me to install a cell in my car the next winter.

So anyway they gave me a choice. I could stay strapped in and ride the car back over when they put it back on it's wheels, or I could "punch out" and risk dropping on my head. I chose to stay in the car. Ironically, the hit of the car rolling back onto it's wheels hurt worse than the first impact. Knocked the wind out of me. If I had to do it again, I'd choose to try to get out of the car first before they roll it back over.
 
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tom_olsson said:
I've been there. My answer is roll close to a turn station! Ha ha. By the time I got my wits about me again, Lynn was already halfway in my window asking how I was doing.

Short of a fire, I'd suggest staying right where you are until everyone decides it's safe for you to bail....
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That is EXACTLY right! Unless you are personally on fire and just NEED to do something, sit tight. Those are situation that trigger quick responses from both corner worker and E-crew. You'll be hanging there but (hopefully) someone will be suppressing the fire quickly.

I don't think you sedans do, but open cockpit cars are REQUIRED to have one fire nozzle that sprays the driver when the system is activated plus the engine compartment nozzles. That helps.

And having read that article about the guys survival in a massive fire at Thunder Hill in a Miata, I'd condsider going to a bigger fire system or, seperate fire bottle for the area of your fuel tank/fuel cell. I'm sure many of you remember Steve's big fire from a few years ago in his Pro-7 car. that was equiped with a very good fuel cell. but the hit was so hard it ruptured all the fuel lines and breather lines from the tank. Although I didn't examine the car afterwards, at the scene it looked like the housing may have even been cracked open from the impact.

Having said that, I must also say the CLUB needs more corner workers, even raw recruits so that the ones who ARE experienced (and willing) can respond to things like this while leaving the station with adequate (somewhat experience) staff to wave flags and communicate. Steve was DARN LUCKY an experienced worker like Ward Betts was at the station he came to a stop in front of.

tom_olsson said:
....So anyway they gave me a choice. I could stay strapped in and ride the car back over when they put it back on it's wheels, or I could "punch out" and risk dropping on my head. I chose to stay in the car. Ironically, the hit of the car rolling back onto it's wheels hurt worse than the first impact.......
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INCIDENT 1:
I'm REALLY surprised at that and do NOT think it would happen today at least, not with Ricky Lee. We had a Miata on it's head at T-5 not long ago. Went to the car and the driver was just fine (actually big smile and almost laughing at the situation). When Ricky arrived, the driver wanted to stay in while the car was righted. NO WAY, Ricky "got" him out (without allowing him to injure his neck) and then the wrecker righted it. Yes, HARD hit on the wheels coming back over. He raced later in the day.... tough little cars those Miata's.

INCIDENT 2 (THIS PAST WEEEKEND):
Miata hit bank at T-3 and rolled off on to the escape road. E-crew arrived with YELLOW at T-2B and YELLOW/WHITE at T-3A. Another Miata came down the hill and did a REPEAT of what the 1st car did slamming into the already rolled over car and sending the E-crew RUNNING!!! Was not a good deal.

That is another reason for NOT trying to extract yourself if you're anywhere near the racing surface when you come to rest. You just don't know what's going to happen next.

And also why remaining drivers who are going around on their wheels NEED to obay and be observant of what the flag stations are telling them. You just cannot imagine in situations like that how much radio time (that should be devoted to the emergancy) is WASTED telling Race Control that traffic is NOT slowing down at the scene... very bad deal and will eventually lead to BLACK FLAG instead of being handled under local control.
 
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Just remember not to do anything until Safety/E-Crew arrives and the field is under control.
Backing off your belts without someone being there is a recipe for disaster when you run the chance of getting hit by another vehicle. That happened in Seattle. It took 3/4 hour to get the driver out of the car with jaws of life. BUT, he backed off his belts after his impact and then got nailed again. And hurt.

So please stay put (short of a fire) until help arrives. Safest place is in your car trussed up like a Christmas Turkey. Safety can then assist you getting out while you are hanging upside down.

BUT having said that, in case of fire, it would be a good idea to have some sort of escape plan to extricate yourself.
Don't foregt to check and double check your fire suppression system each and every time you get in your car. This may buy you needed time to get out.

I remember Tom telling me later that his brother made sure he bought the best safety equipment he could and he was very thankful for all of it when he went over.
Replacing body parts on a car....not a big deal.......our body parts however is a big deal!

I'm glad your son is OK.
 
Actually Rich Steve's car was a second gen RX7 with a Bridgeport rotary running in RS. That extra HP caused some of that barrel roll down to T3A and the subsequent fire and broken bones. Just clarifying...
 
That's something thats pretty hard to practice, (getting out of an upside down car). I would suppose if you were by yourself and had to get out you would put one hand down on the roof or roll cage, then with the other un-latch the belts, keep your chin tucked in.

One thing I've thought about is the window net, since normally gravity will pull it down when you unhook it, when upside down it could hamper getting out. One could attach a couple pieces of surgical tubing to pull it (UP) if you are upside down when you un-hook it. Same could be done to the seat belts, I've seen some enduro cars doing this to help get the belts out of the way for quick exits.
 
As safety team member for over 15 years with all the local racing groups, to INCLUDE circle tracks (I know), Richard has given the best advise. STAY PUT all belts tight until things seattle down and the safety crew gets on scene. This last weekend was a real mess, with the first car being hit by the second car that removed the left front fender and drivers door from the first. AND while the ecrew was on site with ALL KINDS OF LITES, cars were STILL going way to fast down the hill from 2B NOT paying attenion to the flags. Not only did it cause a lot of other problems but it caused a lot of workers (to include a couple of ecrew) NOT to return for Monday. This whole thing was caused by drivers not being heads up. Were are all here to have fun and enjoy the sport and each other. Lets play nice.
 
I was a driver in this run group. I think this was a very unfortunate situation, and I am extremely regretful that it turned out the way it did. I hope nobody thought I was one who was operating through a local caution situation in an unsafe manner. IMHO, and in retrospect this incident probably warranted a double yellow because of the position, conditions and worker exposure, but we could debate this for hours.

I would like to clarify a point made/implied above. I passed the incident twice at 3A having never received a yellow at 2B. On the 3rd time I received the double yellow at 2B.

I respect, appreciate and thank the support of every worker involved in our sport. It is because of the workers that I feel safe as a driver, and I never want to be one who jeopardizes a workers’ safety.

Hopefully we all learned something from this episode.

Jim Eli
SM #15
 
More food for thought:
My kids and I were running errands today and drove past a 3-car rear-ending on the other side of the meridian strip. The most eye-catching feature , noticeable even before we realized it was an accident, were the flames from under the hood of the middle car. Luckily, it looked like all the participants were out of the cars, standing back, watching with mouths open and no way to do anything. (Ironically, the hospital was about 3 blocks away.)
Since the hood was crumpled and not sealed, if someone in the vicinity had had a fire extinguisher they might have been able to safely stop the fire. Unfortunately, I was driving our one street car without an extinguisher. Tomorrow, Mike's picking up one for the Lumina, the tow vehicle, and the racecar (to augment the onboard system).
 
JimEli said:
.......I would like to clarify a point made/implied above. I passed the incident twice at 3A having never received a yellow at 2B. On the 3rd time I received the double yellow at 2B.
Jim Eli SM #15
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Jim,

I'll take your clarification as I'm the one that made that statement. SCCA does NOT do automatic back up of waving yellow flags unless the station waving asks for it. That is DIFFERENT the ICSCC flag procedures. But in this case it should have been done. Sorry it was not.

The really critical point is, the 2nd impact car HAD been past the incident at least once and, the E-crew personel in their orange and their BIG TRUCK with lights were clearly visible coming down the hill.

This will probably get me in trouble but, I must say, ICSCC Race Control and our club Stewards are much more on the ball in assesing track situations and calling for the proper flag conditions. There were several situations over the weekend that left some of us looking at each other going... Huhh? One situation really called for a RED FLAG but it was never called and resulted in E-crews being put in danger once again. That was the double wall hit at T-10 on Sunday afternoon.

One post Black Flag restart that was totally bizarre on Monday. We had a 'confusing' DOUBLE YELLOW called followed immediately by a Black Flag all. So the stations were on double yellow AND Black Flag but NO Pace car out. It was for a car high centered on the dirt exactly where the Miata 'thing' happened the day before.

Once the car that was high centered got lose and came around to the hot pits, cars were released back on to GREEN FLAG conditions coming out of the pit road. Most of us turn workers assumed we'd be on yellow or perhaps even a pace car out for the restart back at the S/F line.

NOBODY in the 1st 7 or 8 cars realized the track was HOT and they proceeded to scrub tires. But, the 5 FB's who were the race leaders knew the track was GREEN but they couldn't pass from 7 or 8 back in the pack due to all the scrubing until they hit the wide road at T-7. Then they blasted past the others whe were still at Pace Lap speeds! Very strange and hazardous. Some of the crews in the hot pits immediately raised the "FOUL" flag. But the restart stood.

Thankfully all the FB's are really good drivers and waited until they could pass safely.
 
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Mark Estes said:
That's something thats pretty hard to practice, (getting out of an upside down car). I would suppose if you were by yourself and had to get out you would put one hand down on the roof or roll cage, then with the other un-latch the belts, keep your chin tucked in.
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Alaska story time!

There's more to my story than I'll trouble you with now (maybe in the pits after a race), but I have once (and don't wish to do it again) exited a motorized vehicle that was upside down (Super Cub that landed ALMOST perfectly in a bog with brand new, never been tested swamp tires, until it nosed over), and doing it with one hand on the roof is definitely the way to go. No helmets in the Cub, so it's even more important to arrest your fall towards the lid when you release your belts (although my hard head probably wouldn't have been injured). This occurred a long time ago, when I was much younger and more foolish! ;-)

No fire or traffic in that situation, though, nor were there any safety crew to help. Just a couple of sheepish Cub jockeys.

Dan
#102
 
Seconding the thoughts of a couple of others regarding the flagging. I greatly value and appreciate the work all the volunteers do, without whom we could not race, but we all can learn from bad situations, and I'd rather risk an adverse reaction to a comment than risk a repeat of a horribly dangerous situation. Here are my thoughts regarding the official reaction to the mess in the first national race:

1. I saw no yellow in Turn 2b, ever (I did get off the track after determining that David was ok, so I never came around again after the first time seeing David upside down). I saw a standing yellow in 3A the first time around, after Gary had rolled into the weeds, and a waving yellow and white in 3A the second time, after David had joined Gary.

2. Without commenting on any mistakes David may have made, Gary was in an extremely vulnerable position, at the very bottom of the straight leading to 3A, in steady rain, on a totally soaked track. A full-course yellow was easily warranted.

3. That is even more the case after the workers came to Gary's aid. That was just more people in jeopardy if someone else slipped. It's one thing to have a local yellow when stricken car and workers are out of the line of fire, but that most clearly was not the case on Sunday.

4. Remarkably enough, when I came around again, and David had joined Gary, there still was only a waving yellow (and white); not double yellow, red or black. There already had been a crash, and an unrelated double yellow (for a much less dangerous condition) earlier in the race. This should have been an immediate double yellow when Gary went off, and certainly when David joined him.

5. Not meaning to criticize the rescue workers, who are valuable volunteers, they parked the truck partially blocking the escape road, and not protecting Gary's car (or themselves when helping Gary). It would be far safer to have as SOP (i) leaving the escape road clear, if possible (David could have taken that had it not been partially blocked, rather than the only decent alternative he had, which led to his roll) (ii) and using the truck as a shield for the stricken car and workers. When all are so exposed to traffic (especially in rain), I would think that immediately throwing the double yellow should also be SOP. The safety of all concerned is far more important than our race.

I hope this will be taken in the spirit in which it was intended, not as criticism but as perhaps a "lessons leaned," for the benefit of all of us.

Thanks, and keep the suggestions coming as to how to react to being upside down.
 
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Richard, I would like to make one correction to your statement about SCCA NOT doing back up yellow flags, unless asked for, is not a completely true statement. It depends on which region and which track you might be at. From your statement, I would have to guess that NWR does not automatically back up a standing yellow with a waving yellow.
 
Interesting point, Gail.

Some will refuse to utilize some techniques because the book doesn't specifically say that you may. Others will utilize many techniques because the good book doesn't specifically say thay you may not.

And if I may don my magnetic ORSCCA F&C Chief shorts for one moment...

In some cases, a preceeding standing yellow might close a lot of track to racing, unnecessarily. In other cases, it may be a very effective way to get the drivers' attention in sufficient time to enable them to react correctly to the situation. At PIR, T11 is important to backup incidents in T12, for example. S/F backs up the Chicane, etc. But it's hard to justify a standing yellow in T4 to back up a waving in T6 for an incident that is at the exit of T7. Fortunately, we've identified some simple procedures to minimize these affects on the racing... it's called, "Free thought". And it seems to work pretty well, regardless of party affiliation.

I firmly believe that automatic backup yellow flags are important, and train that way. Always maintaining that the geography, and distances between stations around the circuit will make a difference in it's application.

PacRway's T2b through T3b complex is a where I would never second guess applying that flagging technique. I have witnessed that same steep banking hard right, 'high-side' roll-over right there under the T3 station more than a couple times through the years.

I'm glad that I haven't heard of anybody being seriously injured this weekend.
 
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gailfetterman said:
...... It depends on which region and which track you might be at. From your statement, I would have to guess that NWR does not automatically back up a standing yellow with a waving yellow.
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That may be true. But it was a subject of discussion at the Saturday morning meeting. The Stewards specifically said NO back up yellows unless the station on waving asks for it. In the 'heat' of the moment, it isn't always the 1st thing on the communicators mind to ask the prior station to go standing.

YES KEN:
When somebody hits the bank drivers left below the T-3A station and rolls, I DO NOT CARE if the car is completely off the racing surface just because it's sitting a few feet on to the escape road. I'll be WAVING every time, especially in the wet. Chew me out for violating the sacred code but a car in that impact area is a serious hazard.
In some cases, a preceeding standing yellow might close a lot of track to racing, unnecessarily.
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I do agree with that also in certain selected areas. Only places it really applys at Pacific is, no need for T-7 to bake up T-8 or for S/F to back up T-2. Very open good visibility area.

One would think there's no need for a back up flag at T-9 for an incident beyond T-10 but that is NOT true. Drivers cannot see what's going on past the kink and they need that additional warning.
 
Richard Broadhead said:
That may be true. But it was a subject of discussion at the Saturday morning meeting. The Stewards specifically said NO back up yellows unless the station on waving asks for it. In the 'heat' of the moment, it isn't always the 1st thing on the communicators mind to ask the prior station to go standing.

...and that right there is why I won't go back to a NWR SCCA event any time soon. Note I say NWR, not painting the SCCA with the NWR scarred brush. Too many times being back seat flagged for me. It's a shame cuz SIR is a cool race track. I honestly don't miss their events one little bit. There needs to be a serious change in Stewards mentality up there.
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Speaking for myself, as a driver: I sometimes get frustrated with the impact of a full-course caution, even though I recognize I have no way of knowing the "big picture" that initiated one. Having said that, I will NEVER complain about local yellows and how much of a particular track they might close. As high as our level of competition might be, it's all just amateur, grassroots racing and, ultimately, supposed to be fun. Putting a driver or volunteer safety worker in any greater risk than we all are simply by being there is something I don't EVER want to see happen, even if it means "messing up" my race. If I choose to risk my life in some endeavor out of a possibly misplaced sense of pride, that's one thing, but as soon as it risks someone else's health and well-being, that's it, game over.
 
"The Stewards specifically said NO back up yellows unless the station on waving asks for it."
Chief of Flags was OK with this?

Each track , each turn and each incident is different. There is no "One Size Fits All' flagging. sheesh.

Holly you said it. Arm chair quarter backing belongs in the arm chair, not at the race track.
But I also heard that they were short workers and some drivers went out to help on the turns. hmmmm
(I know of at least 8 long time workers that don't go back there anymore...that's a lot of experience to loose)

I have often wondered why 2 people and 150 - 175 cars can get it right and 8 - 10 people and 80 - 100 cars can't?
I have also seen 2 people read the riot act to drivers when they didn't behave. (eg: over driving flag condition) Have never seen the other 8 - 10 people do the same. hmmm again

As Steve said, this is just amateur, grassroots racing. We better not forget that.
 
Let's not forget that when it comes right down to it, the Operating Stewards/Base Communications team are just as volunteer as the rest of us. (i.e. no real god-like powers to fear)

We are only as good as the training provided us, and as efficient as the local system of "superiors" allows. NWR has needed to run some third party diagnostics for some time now. Hopefully, before they bleed all of their volunteers off to other interests, perhaps more worth their time, and skill.

Fortunately, a larger number of us have experienced qualified leadership, good training in the FUNdamentals, and those two things can lead to more efficient operations.

But no 'body' is immune.

When SCCA's, and any other E-Crew put themselves in harms way, they are completely reliant on the support of that OS/BC team in the tower to survive while they employ their rescue/recovery techniques. They shouldn't have to be worrying about any more color/numbered missiles being launch at them due to some memory loss on the part of the pilots forgetting the events of their previous lap. Sometimes a full course yellow w/Pace Car is the only way to provide for that element of safety. How long that FCY stays out is a measure of the efficiency of that Rescue/Recovery team, their operational 'Rules of Engagement' and the conditions in which they are sent to respond.

I know CSCC Safety Team has good stats in that regard (We keep good 'track').
 
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