Kinda' interesting for some...
- Thread starter chip
- Start date
Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
Yes that is interesting that the 'word' is getting around. However, there's more to it then that.
Apparently Ford was/is about to cast more Kent style blocks but the real reason for it is a need to increase the supple of blocks/engines for the Bobcat tractor product! That was/is the birth place of the Kent engine.
Ford's sudden renewed interest if supporting FF isn't a 'clean' decision. It comes in the wake of a HONDA proposal to supple engines for FF (Formula Fit)! Their proposal comes complete with a Swift DB-1 equiped with a Honda engine at the June Sprints (for test drives by the top drivers) and a conversion package ready to go.
The general consensus is, Ford (who has ignored FF for the past 40 years) suddenly see's a major promotional base vanishing and has jumped in to try and stop it. As you can imagine, the FF community is split but there's more support for the Honda then one would expect from the to-the-bitter-end Kent faithful.
If Honda had presented this package 5 years ago, they would have been sent back to Japan with their tails on fire. But, with the current shortage of blocks and the cost of an engine if you blow a block ($7,000 to $8,000) plus rising rebuild costs, they are almost being welcomed!
For more info and debat on the 2 issues.....
Discussion on the HONDA:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35870
Discussion on Ford's 11th hour move:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36503
Apparently Ford was/is about to cast more Kent style blocks but the real reason for it is a need to increase the supple of blocks/engines for the Bobcat tractor product! That was/is the birth place of the Kent engine.
Ford's sudden renewed interest if supporting FF isn't a 'clean' decision. It comes in the wake of a HONDA proposal to supple engines for FF (Formula Fit)! Their proposal comes complete with a Swift DB-1 equiped with a Honda engine at the June Sprints (for test drives by the top drivers) and a conversion package ready to go.
The general consensus is, Ford (who has ignored FF for the past 40 years) suddenly see's a major promotional base vanishing and has jumped in to try and stop it. As you can imagine, the FF community is split but there's more support for the Honda then one would expect from the to-the-bitter-end Kent faithful.
If Honda had presented this package 5 years ago, they would have been sent back to Japan with their tails on fire. But, with the current shortage of blocks and the cost of an engine if you blow a block ($7,000 to $8,000) plus rising rebuild costs, they are almost being welcomed!
For more info and debat on the 2 issues.....
Discussion on the HONDA:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35870
Discussion on Ford's 11th hour move:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36503
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Hey Richard,
Yeah, I agree that this idea of recasting Ford Kent blocks has been around quite awhile. And I have no doubt that the plan has nothing to do with making old Ford drivers happy.
The argument about replacing the Kent has been going on for years. Matter of fact that very argument on the old ‘Formula Ford Underground’ pissed Jake Lamont off so bad that he shut down ‘FF Underground’, [overnight as I remember it]. The current ‘Apex Speed’ was started just after that by some guys that liked to hang around FF Underground. Apex used to have the ‘Underground’ archive on their site, but lost it somehow a few years ago.
I do have one small quibble. I believe that when you refer to the tractor origins of the Kent engine you’re thinking of the 4-cylinder engines that were in the early Triumphs, [TR-2,3,4]. Altogether different.
Chip
Yeah, I agree that this idea of recasting Ford Kent blocks has been around quite awhile. And I have no doubt that the plan has nothing to do with making old Ford drivers happy.
The argument about replacing the Kent has been going on for years. Matter of fact that very argument on the old ‘Formula Ford Underground’ pissed Jake Lamont off so bad that he shut down ‘FF Underground’, [overnight as I remember it]. The current ‘Apex Speed’ was started just after that by some guys that liked to hang around FF Underground. Apex used to have the ‘Underground’ archive on their site, but lost it somehow a few years ago.
I do have one small quibble. I believe that when you refer to the tractor origins of the Kent engine you’re thinking of the 4-cylinder engines that were in the early Triumphs, [TR-2,3,4]. Altogether different.
Chip
westipton
Well-known member
No I think he's right about the tractor part Chip. Honda is looking to do this only at the national level as I understand, it won't effect the club or vintage fords for quite awhile, if ever. With the 'new' Kent blocks coming out we won't need 'no stinking Honda motors' now will we?
Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
Has that decision been made for sure, Wes?
I'd suspect the vintage crowd would too totally against the Honda. However, club (CFF) might embrace it, yes, no?
Oh Wes!!! Not you!!! ;-)
The Triumph motor was from a Standard/Ferguson tractor.
The Kent engine originally came in an Anglia in the late 50’s, [sometimes called the ‘Ford 80-Bore’]. ‘Our’ engine is something like the third generation. It went on to become the ‘BDA’, the Twin cam Lotus and others. Some of the basic design was even incorporated into the Cosworth DFX V-8, a fairly famous F1 engine of the day. The Kent engine is not and never was a tractor motor.
Chip
The Triumph motor was from a Standard/Ferguson tractor.
The Kent engine originally came in an Anglia in the late 50’s, [sometimes called the ‘Ford 80-Bore’]. ‘Our’ engine is something like the third generation. It went on to become the ‘BDA’, the Twin cam Lotus and others. Some of the basic design was even incorporated into the Cosworth DFX V-8, a fairly famous F1 engine of the day. The Kent engine is not and never was a tractor motor.
Chip
Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
You are correct. The FF Underground was literally shut down over night due to quibbling (in some cases violently) about an alternative engine for FF.
Apexspeed offered to put an FF section on their Forum (actually the 1st expansion beyond FC and FM I believe).
Doug and Keith attempted to salvage the valuable info on the Underground but that Board was not a VBulletin format. They did their best and STILL retain about the last years worth of info (minus the fist fights for the most part).
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44&pp=40&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1
If you can't see posts go to bottom and set for "From the beginning".
westipton
Well-known member
I doubt that Honda will be looking past the national boys for this engine package, which is a very tidy install BTW.
If the Kent block remake doesn't happen then I suppose it will trickle down to us eventually. I'm glad to hear that Chip, cause I no longer have to defend us against the jackals who refer to our tractor motors!
If the Kent block remake doesn't happen then I suppose it will trickle down to us eventually. I'm glad to hear that Chip, cause I no longer have to defend us against the jackals who refer to our tractor motors!
Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
So, when can we expect to see the 1st Formula FIT in ICSCC racing?
Formula Ford (FIT):
The Board of Directors approved the Club Racing Board recommendation to accept the 1.5-liter Honda Fit engine into the class, offering a modern, low-cost alternative to the venerable 1600cc Ford engines moving forward. The proper class name has also been shortened, simply to “Formula F” or “FF.”
The new engine is an addition, rather than a replacement. SCCA recognizes that many racers will retain the Ford engine configuration that has been used for 40 years. It is the intention of SCCA to maintain competitive parity between the powerplants for many years to come.
Formula Ford (FIT):
The Board of Directors approved the Club Racing Board recommendation to accept the 1.5-liter Honda Fit engine into the class, offering a modern, low-cost alternative to the venerable 1600cc Ford engines moving forward. The proper class name has also been shortened, simply to “Formula F” or “FF.”
The new engine is an addition, rather than a replacement. SCCA recognizes that many racers will retain the Ford engine configuration that has been used for 40 years. It is the intention of SCCA to maintain competitive parity between the powerplants for many years to come.
rick_bostrom
Onda Kattan Racing
Of course it never really works out that way. One engine always ends up being better so someone is constantly having to fiddle with the balance of power to try an equalize them. Ick.
One of the coolest things about FF for the last several decades is that it has provided possibly the most pure comparision of driving ability available to the majority of racers in the world. Same motor, same formula, no downforce, go show us what you can do. Money can always affect outcome, but less in that clas than most. And in what other car can you compare yourself to Fittipaldi, Scheckter, Coulthard, and even the current World Champion - Jenson Button?
One of the coolest things about FF for the last several decades is that it has provided possibly the most pure comparision of driving ability available to the majority of racers in the world. Same motor, same formula, no downforce, go show us what you can do. Money can always affect outcome, but less in that clas than most. And in what other car can you compare yourself to Fittipaldi, Scheckter, Coulthard, and even the current World Champion - Jenson Button?
Richard Broadhead
Flag & Com
That's 'somewhat' true, Rick. But Europe went to the Duratec engine quite a number of years ago for the National level FF racing. How the SCCA could "accept" the Honda proposal and NOT allow the Duratec at the same time is somewhat baffling.
At least that would have kept some equalization with the "birth place" of FF in England/Europe.
rick_bostrom
Onda Kattan Racing
I can live with a change of engine if it is warranted, but I guess my point was it should only be one. I've got zero skin in the game so it doesn't affect me either way. When I started out I wanted a CF because I just think they are one of the coolest form-follows-function car out there and the incredible history doesn't hurt either.
Then I realized that at 6'-1" and 260# I'm built for a different kind of car. Still think they are cool though.
Then I realized that at 6'-1" and 260# I'm built for a different kind of car. Still think they are cool though.
"One of the coolest things about FF for the last several decades is that it has provided possibly the most pure comparision of driving ability available to the majority of racers in the world. Same motor, same formula, no downforce, go show us what you can do. Money can always affect outcome, but less in that clas than most. And in what other car can you compare yourself to Fittipaldi, Scheckter, Coulthard, and even the current World Champion - Jenson Button?"
And lest we forget; Senna... [in an 81 VanDiemen ;-}]
Thank you Mr. Bostrom.
And lest we forget; Senna... [in an 81 VanDiemen ;-}]
Thank you Mr. Bostrom.
westipton
Well-known member
As Mr. Spreen pointed, out one of his 2 cars for sale was driven in 1985 by Eddie Irvine, before he assended to F1 status. Most of these cars have a history, and along with FV they will tell you very quickly if you are competitive or not.
I tried just now to download the shot of the Swift at Road America with the Honda lump installed, but the file size is too large. If you visit my RA post from late July there is a photo of that car, and it is a very tidy install.
I tried just now to download the shot of the Swift at Road America with the Honda lump installed, but the file size is too large. If you visit my RA post from late July there is a photo of that car, and it is a very tidy install.