Is there a home for SCCA T2 cars in Conference?

mikecolangelo

mikecolangelo

Well-known member
I read through the GCRs last night and could not determine where an SCCA T2 car (Mitsubishi Evo VIII, in this case) would fit into Conference racing. T2 cars are mostly stock with very limited mods. Engine and drivetrain are 99% stock, down to the factory airbox. Also, T2 cars are street-legal and retain the catalytic converter. Other T2 cars include the Nissan 350Z, Pontiac Solstice, Subie STI, and a few others. It's an interesting class and I can see it becoming more popular as Evos, STIs, and 350Zs depreciate to the point where they become candidates for club racers.

Personally, I'd love to see T2 cars thrown into Group 5. :cool:

Any thoughts, comments, etc.?
 
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They have to cage it, which sort of makes it not much of a street car anymore safety wise. So they have to take that leap. Time will tell.
 
Lance Richert said:
They have to cage it, which sort of makes it not much of a street car anymore safety wise. So they have to take that leap. Time will tell.
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Yep. Roll cage, harness, race seat, fire extinguisher, etc. But the rest of the interior stays in. But I think the idea is to contain costs and allow MODERN performance cars a place to play.

Recognizing the potential safety issues with driving a caged car on the street, this class of cars (like the SCCA Showroom Stock cars) could potentially be raced on Sunday and driven to work on Monday. Not that I'd do that.

So, getting back on topic, which group would T2 cars run?
 
I used to drive my GP CRX to work everyday. Full cage made it a bit difficult to get in and out, but it was sure a source of conversation and hopefully got a couple of people interested in Conference.
 
There are a few classes (SPM, ITE, probably also something like AP/BP) they'd be allowed in, but probably not many (if any) they'd be competitive in as pure T2 cars. OTOH, they would definitely have a home in our soon-to-be-proposed Sport Touring (ST) class. See http://www.race-st.com/ for some more info.
 
Mike

This is basically the dilemna I ran into with my Subie. There just wasn't a real home for my car in Conference. So I went the only route that was possible - ITE.

The other big disadvantage that the Subie has is that it eats tires on the stock suspension (cords the outside edges of the tires). Once I figured out that changing the suspension would help with tire wear I was sort of "all in" to jump to ITE.

It would be fantastic to find a place for the T2/T3 cars to play AS-IS and be competitive within Conference. Personally I just don't think it is going to happen.

Depending on the car it might be eligible for a production class. But when I did the math on the STi is was like a min weight of 4000+ lbs or something crazy.

ST would be a fun class for sure, but plan on going to coil overs (or some other upgraded suspension). And removing some of the unneccessary weight to get down to 10:1 lbs/hp. What does the EVO weigh in at?

PS - The brake pads and tires for our cars is $$$ compared to the Miata :)
 
Hi Steve, good to hear from you!

Yes, a T2 car wouldn't stand a chance in ST. Maybe things will change as these cars depreciate more and become more accessible as race cars and a true T2 class could be formed. With these cars, stock engine = reliable race car. I'm thinking long-term anyway. It would sure be fun. Every time I drive my bone stock Evo I think what a great track car it is. It'd be fun to have an STI vs Evo war on the local tracks!
 
I wouldn't say it wouldn't have a chance. In "stock" T2 form, yes, you're going to have a hard time finding a non-T2 class to be competitive in. OTOH, there are a few cars that are heading for ST that are more on the order of 14:1. The 10:1 limit is the MAX, not the MIN. :)
 
Steve Adams said:
I wouldn't say it wouldn't have a chance. In "stock" T2 form, yes, you're going to have a hard time finding a non-T2 class to be competitive in. OTOH, there are a few cars that are heading for ST that are more on the order of 14:1. The 10:1 limit is the MAX, not the MIN. :)
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I would be at 14.34 lbs and would like someone to play with :D
 
I dunno if I would say that about the Subie engine :) The hyperteutic pistons just don't seem to be able to hold up to the abuse. There are tons of street driven only STi's out there with blown ringlands.

I think if you limited a T2/T3 class to 180+ treadwear tires (basically high end autocross tires) you may have a real fun class. Tires would last a whole season (maybe 2).

If you were racing the stock engine, on a street tire, with decent brake pads it would be pretty cost effective.
 
The more I think about it, the cooler the idea sounds. Let the T2 cars run in G2/G5, and force them to run street tires.
 
hmm i dont know if i would like that if they were in g2 or g5 some of the drivers there have a lot of corner speed no very little straight line speed. and a car that is 1000 lbs more on street tires would get driven around in the corners or get in the way and then blow by the same car down the straight parts. if he lap times were even remotely close
 
the_driver said:
hmm i dont know if i would like that if they were in g2 or g5 some of the drivers there have a lot of corner speed no very little straight line speed. and a car that is 1000 lbs more on street tires would get driven around in the corners or get in the way and then blow by the same car down the straight parts. if he lap times were even remotely close
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Even with high-end street performance tires, Evos and STIs do pretty well in the twisties. These aren't Camaros! ;)

But if we went by the current SCCA ruleset, T2 cars would be running Hoosier R compounds.
 
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the_driver said:
hmm i dont know if i would like that if they were in g2 or g5 some of the drivers there have a lot of corner speed no very little straight line speed. and a car that is 1000 lbs more on street tires would get driven around in the corners or get in the way and then blow by the same car down the straight parts. if he lap times were even remotely close
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I (like an idiot) ran on street tires in the novice race at Pacific back in May (thought it was going to rain, and I didn't have race rain tires). I was pretty competitive with the front running novice PRO3 cars, but not faster. Finished 3rd behind Bart House (PRO3) and Scott Norton(RS e36). I had maybe 10 to 15 mph on them on the front straight, but you are right... I couldn't hang in the corners.

And my car has 50 hp more than stock, a fully adjustable coilover suspension, lighter than stock by a couple hundred pounds, and has a bigger wing/front spoiler.

As far as weight... its no different than running my car in SPM against Pat's 2500lbs RX-7 or Mac's Nissan (don't know the weight.... but it has to be liggght).

mikecolangelo said:
But if we went by the current SCCA ruleset, T2 cars would be running Hoosier R compounds.
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We would have to write our own supps to exclude DOT-R's.
 
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If enough of the SCCA T2 people join ICSCC by year end they can propose T2 as a provisional class using SCCA rules and even propose what group they would run in. Like T2 in group 2 while running ITE as an alternate in Group 4.
 
the_driver said:
hmm i dont know if i would like that if they were in g2 or g5 some of the drivers there have a lot of corner speed no very little straight line speed. and a car that is 1000 lbs more on street tires would get driven around in the corners or get in the way and then blow by the same car down the straight parts. if he lap times were even remotely close
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I concur. Putting a high-power/low traction car in group 2 or 5 is something I would protest and fight to keep from happening. It doesn't sound fun at all.

Having someone blow by you in the straights only to hold you up in the corners is NO fun at all and since we aren't out here getting TV time, sponsors or umbrella girls, I want my thousands of dollars spent going to something fun, not something irritating.

Right now the Hondas are going by the Miatas down the straight in groups 2 and 5 and holding them up in the corners but not dramatically and the PRO3 cars are a bit faster than the Hondas but then hold us up in the corners, but not dramatically (and this doesn't apply to all pro3 or all hondas). If a car like an STI or EVO was to run similar lap times as an ITA Miata/Honda that would mean that it would be GARBAGE in the corners and the difference in cornering speed would be dramatic. If a 300hp car is only running 1:41's at Pacific Raceways it becomes a major pain in the ass to the cars that run 1:41's with 120hp.

If putting ridiculous cars like STI's and EVOs in the group 2 or 5 with street tires becomes acceptable and they start interfering with racers who like cornering speed vs. drag racing then I can see this becoming a major problem.

Putting cars like that in 2 or 5 isn't logical or reasonable.
 
colin_koehler said:
I concur. Putting a high-power/low traction car in group 2 or 5 is something I would protest and fight to keep from happening. It doesn't sound fun at all.

Having someone blow by you in the straights only to hold you up in the corners is NO fun at all and since we aren't out here getting TV time, sponsors or umbrella girls, I want my thousands of dollars spent going to something fun, not something irritating.

Right now the Hondas are going by the Miatas down the straight in groups 2 and 5 and holding them up in the corners but not dramatically and the PRO3 cars are a bit faster than the Hondas but then hold us up in the corners, but not dramatically (and this doesn't apply to all pro3 or all hondas). If a car like an STI or EVO was to run similar lap times as an ITA Miata/Honda that would mean that it would be GARBAGE in the corners and the difference in cornering speed would be dramatic. If a 300hp car is only running 1:41's at Pacific Raceways it becomes a major pain in the ass to the cars that run 1:41's with 120hp.

If putting ridiculous cars like STI's and EVOs in the group 2 or 5 with street tires becomes acceptable and they start interfering with racers who like cornering speed vs. drag racing then I can see this becoming a major problem.

Putting cars like that in 2 or 5 isn't logical or reasonable.
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Calm down, no one is seriously thinking about proposing a class. Just thinking in fantasy land.

I still think it would work out just fine. You guys are giving the stock STi's and Evo's too much credit. Remember 300 flywheel hp is only 230-240 whp. And the cars weigh 3400lbs (race weight). The AWD (even with street tires) will keep the cornering speeds up. The other T2 cars may not fair as well on street tires though (SRT-4's, Solstice,etc).
 
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