FF drivers ALERT!

[Richard Broadhead]

Depending upon a decision under consideration by the SCCA's CRB, a 'study' may go on during the 2010 season evaluating a proposed SPEC TIRE for Formula Ford. The rule IF it goes through would effect the 2011 season.

As ICSCC follows the SCCA FF rules, you might want to be aware of this and depending upon your inclinations want to 'follow' the rule or, submit a rules change to 'exempt' ICSCC from the tire rule if it comes to be.

Here's the meat of the discussion:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37259

 

[rj5p2]

Wow Hope It Happens Tire costs in FF are equal to FM and the cars cost more to run. I love FF and would consider it in the future if the tires could make it more than just two heat cycles. Even if the new tire was an american racer they can usually go 6 to 8 cycles before they start to loose a little. Thats a big difference plus they cost less to purchase.

I Played with Hoosier 60s this year they were a little faster than the American Racers but they fell off after 4 heat cycles.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

Engines

More semi-good-news for the FF gang INCLUDING CF!!

NEW ENGINE BLOCKS ARE COMING!!

I personally spoke to the Ford Rep at PRI - he advised (standing in front of the "new design" in RPD format) that they were waiting for the SCCA's approval as because of new casting techniques and materials, [and despite "beefer" areas around the journals and lower areas], it will come in betwen 5-6 lbs lighter " ... or maybe even slightly lighter than that ..." . Costs, nothing definite but hopefully under $1K. EJ

WHY they are asking for SCCA approval is beyond me as Ford needs these blocks for other applications and, SCCA already jumped on the FIT band wagon. SCCA cannot at this point back away from having approved the FIT.

Hope SCCA doesn't drag their feet or muck up this potential new block for "real" FF racing.

Regardless, it's good news for FF purests who want to stay with FORD :wink:

 

[Stephen Hui]

WHY they are asking for SCCA approval is beyond me as Ford needs these blocks for other applications and, SCCA already jumped on the FIT band wagon. SCCA cannot at this point back away from having approved the FIT.

I'm not an FF guy, but this doesn't seem as simple as you described it. Ford's explicitly saying this new block will perform better than the old one (lighter weight and implicitly stronger materials), which implies that everyone who wants to run front of pack will need to upgrade to the new block. Also, Honda had to jump through hoops to show that the Fit engine wouldn't have a performance advantage over the old Kent motor. Should the Honda's specs be changed again to match this new block's performance potential now?

 

[HayesCages]

I'm just going to jump in here: If the new Ford block is simply stronger but doesn't have a real performance advantage why should it make any difference? I hate to say this but 5 lbs isn't going to make a huge difference on the track.
Other than possibly raising the RPM potential, and that would be a problem with the current camshaft design, what would a stronger block do for the car? They aren't a stressed member like FF2K.
Lawrence

 

[Richard Broadhead]

The reason for a new block isn't to improve performance.

There simply are NOT any Kent/Cortina blocks left in the world. When you do find one (even the very rare junk yard ones) the finders want like $3,000 to $4,000 for a basic BLOCK!!!

If you hole a Kent or Cortina today, you'e going to be lucky to find a replacement. Last one Ivey had stored in his shop that some one owned went for $7,500.

Todays engine costs just don't go with a formula ford that you can purchase between $8,000 and $16,000.

 

[westipton]

Jay Ivey and most of the other major engine builders have worked on this for quite awhile now. With 'new' blocks and the use of aluminum heads now permitted, the class has new life, and hopefully increased longevity regarding the motors and their pieces.
5 pounds saved in an 1100 pound vehicle is important, and represents about 1/2 HP. Just a fraction less weight means a fraction saved off every corner, which sure can't hurt. The aluminum heads are 18 pounds lighter, and even at $2500.00 it's a huge deal in weight savings to many drivers who can find no other way to get their cars down to minimum. I had to buy a replacement block from Jay years ago, and fortunately I didn't pay near what they are going for now. Perhaps the alum heads are more now, but I'm not sure.
The national boys will switch to the Fit pretty quickly I'd guess, but the rest of us CF types will most likely stay with the Kent, unless SCCA moves forward with rule changes to our class. I don't see why they would bother, but then again it is SCCA, and logic has never been their forte...

 

[Richard Broadhead]

Wes,

Much to my surprise, Dave Gomberg said all Ford needs to do is GIVE THEM (as in SCCA BOD) the Ford Performance Parts number for the new block and they'll add it to the 'approved' list for FF's.

Strange things in the land of FF. Knowing the way SCCA works these days, you'd think they'd put up more road blocks then that.

Almost as strange as Bernie Ecclestone wanting to add 'short cuts' on F1 tracks to improve the competition. If you fall too far back you can use the 'short cuts' 5 times during a race to catch up. Yes, most people think he was smoking crack at the time of this quote. He also said F1 cars should go back to drum brakes to improve the opportunities for passing.

 

[jharvey]

Lighter may mean something (to the guys who cannot get down the 1100lbs), but stronger will not, at least with the blocks. The engines only make 110hp, and if you are skipping the flywheel off the curbs, it is the crank that breaks anyway. The best improvement to the FF engine was the forged crank and pistons. I cannot even remember the last time I saw a FF engine EXPLODE like they used to.

 

[HayesCages]

BTW: We've got As a driver of Vees for 20 years I'm well aware of the weight savings/ HP ratio.
A five pound savings could make a difference in a perfect world. The track rarely sees this world, especially in a heated race atmosphere.
If you were able to take a vehicle out, turn some laps, come in and remove 5 lbs, tell the driver nothing (i.e. a blind test) and have him turn some more laps, I wager that the laps would be so close to each other you'd not be able to differentiate between them.
Yes, all things being equal, you'd see 'A' difference, but is it continuously repeatable lap after lap? Only if the planets are perfectly aligned.
If your at minmum weight already it wouldn't make a difference anyway...unless you count being able to place your ballast where ever you like
So how about those new spec tires? LOL!
Lawrence

BTW: We have a very nice std bore 711m block I'd be willing to sell for only $5k, that's $2500 less than a unit listed elswhere on the thread.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

.... BTW: We have a very nice std bore 711m block I'd be willing to sell for only $5k, that's $2500 less than a unit listed elswhere on the thread.

Lawrence,

If you're refering to the $7,500 price I mentioned for somebody's engine Ivey had at this shop, that was a complete ready to race engine.

Although it can get more absurd. Art Smith had what he claimed was the highest HP FF engine every built for sale about 8 months ago. He only wanted somewhere around $12,000 for it. I don't think he ever sold it.

Between the FIT and the new Ford block, FF will be a successful class for another 40 years!

.... what would a stronger block do for the car? They aren't a stressed member like FF2K.
Lawrence

The Pinto engine in the F2000 cars are NOT a stressed member. The engine has forward mounts to the bulkhead and is bolted to the transaxle. The transaxle is rigidly bolted to frame rails and passes the suspension loads directly in to the frame.

The Zetec engine was introduced to F2000 (FC) a few years ago to address engine life problems with the Pinto. The Pinto has never been allowed upgrades such as newer piston/rod geometry to improve bore life nor a new crank. Although a $4,500 aluminum head is now available (geez). Pinto's need a rebuild about every 1,500 miles (about $4,000) with a head refresh at 800 miles (about $700). That is about 11 race weekends in ICSCC racing. The FF KENTS with all the good stuff in them are good for about 2 years of racing in ICSCC.

The Zetec is a great step forward in FC but, it's very difficult to convert 'most' older cars. Unlike the FIT for FF, the Zetec is a physically bigger engine then the Pinto. The conversion to Zetec even on cars where it can be done runs around $16,000 with engine, parts and frame mods.

It does provide a HUGE improvement in life cycle for the engine. About 4 to 5 years of serious racing in the F2000 pro series where, they put just about enough miles on their engines PER WEEKEND (including test and tune days) to put a Pinto in the time window for a rebuild!!

 

[HayesCages]

I was thinking ala- Swift by stating the stressed member thing....if you removed the block the car would fold in half.

The last 2liter I rebuilt was together (granted, in a non-competetive car) for 17 years. The only reason it had to be rebuilt was it had dropped a rocker off of the cam and ruined it. Pretty durable if you ask me. I haven't chatted with any pro drivers regarding that though.
Sounds like you've been through all of that already Richard. Thanks for the insight.

$7500 sounds about right for a complete CF engine. Top Vee engines are in the same price range, saddly. But they do take the same massaging to attain the highest power also.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

..... Top Vee engines are in the same price range, saddly. But they do take the same massaging to attain the highest power also.

Well, you can SOLVE that problem

CONVERT to Formula FIRST and run mid to upper 1/4th of the FF pack And, have a $3,500 all inclusive replacement engine.

I'm sorta shocked nobody in the Northwest has done this or purchased a Formula First. Excellent way to take a step UP in speed and a step DOWN in cost of operation.

.....The last 2liter I rebuilt was together (granted, in a non-competetive car) for 17 years. Pretty durable if you ask me.....

INDEED, I've spoken with some of our S2 drivers in the area particularly those running in SOVREN. They are using 'almost' stock clearances in their Pinto's and getting 4 years or so of good performance. The 'trouble' starts when you go to a 'pro' built configuration SCCA National quality engine with loose tolerances for max HP. Life cycle drops like a rock.

Actually we have not been through the rebuild yet. Have one engine in the car and another sitting in the garage ready for a rebuild. I've talked with the Ivey shop a lot about what the cost will be. Actually sorta wish we could find a local to Seattle shop who could rebuild the Pinto. But seems like 90% of the guys up here in FF and FC are running Ivey's. NO question he's good.

The 'weak spot' in the Pinto is piston wear on the cylinder bores (NO over bore allowed) that increases the rebuild costs. There's a longer rod/shorter piston combo that would reduce this wear and eliminate the need for resleeving. But the combo isn't an approved part set for FC.

 

[HayesCages]

I gave up on Vees pretty much. Sold the car year before last and my wifes too. Long story but I'm building us a two story house out of town and that's taking our race budget for the next few years...after that it's back to it with SOVREN in the Mustang and then the year after possibly our Lola T-61-8 F2.
I too am surprised no one's built a first up here either. It wouldn't surprise me to see my old Vee changed over to a First.
Ivey is the go-to guy for those engines. He's in our area and has his own forged pistons made just for this applcation. Spendy but available and very nice! I had them do the head, about $700 with a new/used cam, I honed the block, had the crank polished and reassembled with no issues. Pretty easy build all-in-all.
Lawrence

 

[westipton]

IF you are down to minimum weight it may not be a big deal, but when you're 49 pounds over it sure helps to shed any weight you can.The alum head would get me down 18, and I'm working on the rest by pushing away from the table and working out pretty much everyday. 49 pounds divided by 1100 is 4%, and over 4 HP, and I can sure feel that on corner exit.
Next step before the head would be the uprated pistons and crank, but if business doesn't pick up soon I will be just a spectator this season.
What new spec tire?

 

[Lynn Rimmer]

Oh no you won't Wes.........you will be the belle of the ball in whites.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

Wes,

We are looking for 53 pounds and it ain't on Jeff.

So here's the list that would get us there. Yup, averaging it out, the old saying works. About $1,000 per pound. So, we won't be at minimum weight any time soon

062" Aluminum floor.
Aluminum Radiators
lightened CVs.
lightened ring.
Aluminum spider gear carrier.
ICP calipers
light brale rotors w/ Al hats.
Aluminum toe links on rear wishbones.
No bolts with excessive threads showing.
Dumping old rivet heads out of chassis tubes.
lightened half shafts.
no oil cooler.
shocks without external canisters.
no MSD box.
lightened pressure plate.
11# flywheel.
lightened transverse suspension plates
Shorter springs

 

[HayesCages]

Hey guys, don't forget the carbon body panels, they're ultra-light. Cha-ching!!
Light weight FG body panels wouldn't be exceedingly difficult to fab yourself as long as you don't mind sniffing resin and wearing losts of heavy cloths to work with the glass. Probably worth 10+ lbs too, depending on the existing ones. I built a nose for Quinn Posners car several years ago that weighed in at a hefty 2.8 lbs. Take a hit and you'd just bonk it back into shape.
Yeah, 50+ lbs is hard to lose. My first Vee was 50 over min. and I only weighed 150 at the time... The new car would meet min. with a 200 lb driver.
I feel your pain though, it's really hard to drop that much and you can only lose so much body weight. I went on the 3 week pneumonia diet a few years ago and lost 15 lbs. Wasn't much good for driving though afterwards.
Cheers,
Lawrence

 

[westipton]

Old rivet heads in the chassis tubes. I remember that from my first FV, annoying but funny! I have had my half shafts turned and lightened, replaced both heavy rear calipers, purchased lightweight bodywork and have whittled off every extra ounce I could the last few years, so now it's down to me personally. I received a 10 minute lecture from my Doc last fall when I went in for allergy issues, and how excess weight can be such a killer as we age, so I am working on it pretty hard. Open wheelers are difficult enough to drive fast, and when you're uncomfortable in there it's 10 times worse.
Yes dear, I will come out to a corner and watch everybody else have fun if the budget doesn't materialize soon. I know you guys have fun out there, I'm just talking about that other kind of fun.
Both cars are being massaged and tinkered wth slowly, and we hope to make the first ORP event.

 

[Richard Broadhead]

Hey guys, don't forget the carbon body panels, they're ultra-light. Cha-ching!! Lawrence

NOT on an FC, won't work. Rule in FC paraphrase'd:

Absolutely NO carbon fiber shall touch thy body work for any reason. Not even for reenforcing weak areas. Kevlar, okay for reenforcing.

.... I will come out to a corner and watch everybody else have fun if the budget doesn't materialize soon. I know you guys have fun out there, I'm just talking about that other kind of fun.....

We are in the same place, Wes. Last year Jeff only ran 2 races because he was really worried about having a job by the end of the year. STILL in the same position going in to 2010 plus he's doing a major home improvement project. Right now, I just hope he will do at least 2 races to keep his license current until times get better.

He's way too sensible