R888 vs Hoosier DOT-R's

clintonracing

something witty
I'm thinking about switching over from Hoosier DOT-R's to R888's this season for a few reasons:
1) with AWD I am having problems tearing up front tires. The outer edges wear down to the cord quickly. I am hoping a harder tire will last longer.
2) I am hoping I can use the R888's unshaved as an all purpose (wet and dry) track condition tire.
3)Right now all I can find in the Hoosiers are 245/45/17, I can get the R888's in a 245/40 or 235/40. Which will help with the gearing. The 245/45 are about an inch taller, and I am losing acceleration out of the corners with them. With the extremely long 5th and 6th gear of the STi, I am nowhere near running out of RPM at PIR or Pacific.

I know they are going to be a bit slower in braking and corner speed, but what do you guys think about overall lap times with compensating for the better gearing.

And, what do you think about running them as an all purpose track condition tire (wet and dry)?

I appreciate the help

Thanks,
Steve
 
The R888 is pretty new 'round these parts so many of us haven't had much time on them. Last year in Pro3, a few racers made the change-over for some early testing from the spec tire, RA-1. Jeff VanLierop, our points champ, was one that switched over.

Early reports were that the tire doesn't require nearly as much neg camber as the RA-1 and tire temps were ellusive.

That being said, Jeff figured them out and was running at the same pace as Andrew Newell who was on RA-1's. The lap time difference was neglegible in this case.

Not sure if that helps you decide (since we didn't test Hoosier), but it seems once the set-up is figured out, the R888 is similar to the RA-1 (lap times).

I can't say if Jeff was using shaved R888's or not.

This year, all of Pro3 will be on the R888 as we changed the spec tire.
 
The 888s are a good tire for the money, and do have an impressive amount of grip, while also being very durable. We were impressed with their performance at the 25 hours of Thunderhill, where we completed the shortened 17 hours using a total of six tires on our 1970 240Z with it's less than ideal strut suspension. It's worth noting that the remaining tread suggests we could have gone the entire 25 hours on one set of left side tires and two sets of right sides. The tire size was 235/50-15.

We ran lap times the equal to, or better than the previous bias ply slicks, a true racing tire, and in my opinion the grip character or feel was very consisent throughout a 2 hour stint.

We went to the enduro with no experience using the 888s, having never run the car on radials of any kind in it's entire 35 years as a race car, so the alignment settings were a sheer guess, and the target hot pressure was chosen from consultation with several PRO-3 drivers. Interestingly, the target hot pressure recommendation was substantially lower than the manufacturer recommendation, and our initial temp readings and eventual tire wear proved out the lower pressure recommendation to be valid.

One thing we did find interesting, and something that others have noted, is that the 888s have a dual tread compound, or something in their construction that results in an unusual tread wear pattern where a cupping occurs in roughly the middle of the contact patch. It wasn't an acute problem, but interesting nonetheless.

We also found that we were having a little bit more wear on the outside shoulder than ideal, even though we had maxed out the camber available at -3 degrees. This may be a problem for you, just as you are experiencing with the R6s.

The R6 is a good tire that is probably more finicky than the 888. It won't tolerate less than ideal chassis set ups as well as other tires like the 888, but will return a higher level of performance. In my experience, it can be a very durable tire given a chassis set up with good static and dynamic suspension behavior. I was personally very pleased with the performance of the R6 on the Viper, after I went to the trouble to cut off and relocate the suspension mounting points to improve the camber and toe curves. On a car that weighed almost 3400 lbs and made over 600 lbs of torque, I could run an entire season of 20+ sprint races plus test and tunes, using only two sets of tires total.

I'm sure I'm not saying anything you don't already know, but a tire switch doesn't really seem like the solution to your principle issue. It seems more likely to be a problem with limitations of your static alignment settings, and likely less than optimal dynamic camber behavior of your suspension coupled with excessive roll and pitch in the chassis, or other basic design challenges that will be difficult or take some effort and time to overcome. I honestly think you have an alignment or chassis balance challenge, not a tire problem, that switching tires won't solve. It may help the budget some, because the 888s cost less and will probably last a little longer, but they will be slower than the R6, no question, maybe as much as two seconds. And the construction features of each brand may be different enough, like the sidewall stiffness for instance, that you may find your problem of excessive outside shoulder wear only gets worse. Or, maybe it will be better.

The good news is since tires are a fairly high frequency consumable, testing something different doesn't really require any significant capital expenditure. I just wouldn't expect a silver bullet type result. My experience has been that it takes time to zero in on what a given tire needs, and switching back and forth confuses things.

My personal recommendation, which is worth a hill of beans, is to choose a tire that fits your needs best, and develop the chassis to suit that tire's needs. Maybe it's a good compromise tire for all conditions like the 888 that returns good performance in same, that's robust and a good value. Or maybe it's a more focused application tire like the R6 or BFG that returns higher performance in exchange for less service life.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the insight. I understand what you are saying about the testing, set up, and experience. I think you are completely correct, I have only been tracking the car for a couple of years and still have a ton to learn. And only for about a year with an adjustable suspension on it.

My camber settings definitely have a impact on the outer edge wear. When I put the adjustable suspension on, I went from stock camber to -2.5. This helped a bunch and the outer wear problem decreased. Then I had to buy tires. The only ones I could find were an inch taller, so I had to decrease the negative camber (and add wheel spacers) to get them to clear the springs. The camber reduced to -2.0, and down at Reno-Fernley I was destroying passenger side front tires after 2 sessions.

I don't know if the extreme wear was due to off camber corners and rough pavement at RFR.

I have run Pacific with a soft street tire (treadwear 200 A A - Dunlop Direzza Z1) and the outer edge looked great after 4 twenty minute sessions.

So if the 888 will be a decent rain tire and a suitable (even if slower) dry tire, I am likely to give them a try. I still have some Hoosiers that I will be able to use early next year. I may get a set of R888 and run them at a couple of track days to try to get some times for comparison.

Thanks for the help Randy and Mike.
 
Here is the 2009 Hoosier product guide;

https://www.hoosiertire.com/speccat.pdf

There is a suitable size for you that is shorter, that should help get back as much negative camber as possible if the overall height is the packaging problem;

R6 in 245/40-17, 24.5" O.D. vs. 25.7" for the 245/45

FWIW, for those of you running 18s, there is a new slick called the "CUP", listed under page 16, "ROAD RACING SLICKS - RADIAL", SIZE 250/650R18 CUP.

I know of one car that has a couple of sets now, they're supposed to be two seconds faster than R6s fwtw...
 
Oh yeah yeah--- I should mention I am cheap, so I go for take offs..... meaning beggars can't be chooser :) My source for take offs has an easier time getting R888's in 245/40's vs R6 245/40 -- Sorry for the confusion.
 
Hi Bob,

We started the Thunderhill enduro with a pair of used 888s on the right side of the car, that started full depth, and had been run for the full 12 hours at Portland on the right side of another Z car there. We switched them after 8 hours at Thunderhill, but they could have gone another 4 hours before being used up. We replaced those with a set of full tread stickers that we had scrubbed in qualifying.

For the left side tires, we started at Thunderhill with a full tread pair that had been used for one sprint race at Portland. My recollection is that we ran the entire shortened race on those, but that they could have gone the full 25 hours on the left side.

I suspect this tire wear was largely a product of our race strategy, which with the Z car since it's never going to be that fast anyway is to drive the car very carefully and smoothly, to be able to stay out doing laps and not in the pits.

Toby,

In my limited experience, tire pyrometers are a good tool, but one that take a lot of very careful and repeatable testing for the data to have any meaningful use. Even given these criteria, drawing conclusions from the readings is very difficult, because it's nearly impossible to isolate adjustments and then track the changes, especially on road courses. On oval tracks, things are greatly simplified, and still the readings don't always directly correlate to, or change according to the adjustments a person tries. Are the uneven readings due to a toe problem, camber, or pressure? Or some other issue? Many times the cumulative tread wear can also be a simple and accurate means to assess the settings, and that's free. Or maybe I'm wrong about all this...
 
Back
Top