More track time or more racing? :brainstorm session:

colin_koehler

Great SCOTT!
"The World belongs to those who show up." Well, if not to the meetings then please show up to the forum.

Well, the truth is many don't show up (to the meetings) but that doesn't mean someone with a good idea or a solution to a known discord should not have a voice. This very forum can give voice and birth to ideas that may be well received and maybe championed by those who do "show up". Another barrier is that it's sometimes hard to move a whole group forward when the whole group is a series of 5 small groups. It can be logistical cat herding. So please, attend the meetings if you can but if you cannot and you still have input and ideas regarding race time and scheduling please join the discussion.

Disclaimer: Keep bickering, complaining and false arguments out of this discussion. Thank you.

The topic: Race-time vs Track-time and scheduling.

Some points of interest:

1: Special races, points races, multi-race weekends and what we've learned from it so far.

2: Practice, Qualifying, TnT's and number of groups

3: ICSCC by-laws, championship (number of events, qualifications etc) and club equality (getting racers to travel)

4: Staying profitable, growing base, appealing to popular crowds.
 
The only input I have on this subject is I think Conference would benefit from having more RACE time as opposed to track time when trying to attract drivers who have to travel. It doesn't make sense for me to travel from Spokane to Portland for a single race weekend because of cost versus actual race time when comparing it to traveling for Enduro events or double and triple race weekends. No one would come to Spokane for a single race weekend from Seattle. I'd rather save my money and travel to an event where there is more racing. That said, adding the Mini Enduro's was a brilliant idea and does ease the cost of such a trip for a single 30 minute race.

I also think it's a great idea as The Ridge enduro did to INCLUDE the HPDE sessions as part of your payment for the race entry or at the very least a discounted rate from the regular $150-$250 price tag we usually pay for track days. This again could attract more racers and with doing so, the schedule could be adjusted to drop a practice/qualifying session and then incorporate a qualifying style race or something along that line that sets positions for the "Main Race." This would give RACERS the OPPORTUNITY for more track time and more race time if they choose to attend the HPDE before the weekend.
 
I'll tackle #1 while I'm here:

I want to address 2 things: Special races and multi-race weekends. IMHO, they work and they should be applauded and "improved" and I also think the special races don't need to be every weekend. I think it dilutes the charm and takes away from championship racing and what we should have more of is championship racing.

I think the double/triples garner more entries and I theorize they do so because folks want more "racing" for their dollar, specifically "championship points racing" for their dollar. After all, we built our cars to a specific set of rules for a reason.

If my $275 on a single race weekend buys me 4 sessions with only 1 race, I have a hard time seeing the value. In the past sure, but not anymore. What SCCA did last year at PIR (Qual/Race, Race/Race) and what NASA is doing now, combine with what ICSCC has done regarding triples/doubles; the single race weekend has little value to me unless I need it for a championship race.

So the multi-race weekend has proven to be a success, but not because we get more "practice" or more qualifying... We get more "racing". We should learn from this.

Proposal:
I think the $275-285 (or heck, just make it $299) should include 2 championship points races minimum per weekend. You can still have 4 sessions (qual/race, qual/race) and qualifying doesn't need to be more than 15min. Now I've spent all this money to tow to the track (and maybe burn a day of PTO) and instead of racing once for $275-300 I get to do it twice. Yes please. Still give a discount if the same driver enters 2 classes. I'm not proposing this as a new religion but if the by-laws could exist in a manner that "allows" for this.


This is where points 2 and 3 come into play. Doing something like this requires some creativity in scheduling and some hefty modifications to by-laws as well as upsetting the apple cart on how many races a club can run etc etc... I have thoughts for all that too. :wink:
 
More racing was one of the reason racers wanted to change 703.

Under current rules there is nothing that keeps clubs from doing this.

15 minute Qualify, 15 minute race, 15 minute race, 30 minute championship race......simple just do it....use all the races to determine club champions if you like......leaves plenty of time for special races as well, gives the majority of racers who do not run for the icscc championship a club title to run for.

To much racing? Not enough bites at the quali apple? Ok 15 minute qualify, 15 minute race, 15 quali, 30 minute championship race.

Do not want to race non-championship race before championship race ok 15 minute quali, championship race, 15 minute race, 15 minute race......and so on

Basically just drop a green flag and pay the head tax how hard is this to understand?
 
I really enjoyed the schedule at the BMWCCA race I did last year at Laguna. At first glance I didn't think I would like the schedule but after it was done, I wished every weekend was like it. Lots of racing, not just track time.

Conference has more groups to fit in the day and the rules probably don't support it, but the point was there were 4 sessions per group and 3 of them were full races.

Saturday
20 min Qualifying
25 min Race #1

Sunday
25 min Race #2 (gridded by fastest lap from Race #1)
25 min Race #3 (gridded by fastest lap from Race #2)
 
Eric

Other than fitting in 95 minutes (90 will fit without a special race) and linking quali to the Championship race.......nothing.......absolutely nothing keeps any club from running quali, sprint race 1, sprint race 2, and Championship Race......nothing nada zilch 30.00 of head tax that's it

Greg
 
You want more races? Ok 1-6 quali followed by combined group 1/4, 2/5, 3/6 15 minute sprit race 1, then same combined group format sprint race 2......that is Saturday

Sunday morning 1-6 quali or combined group sprint races 3 and 4 afternoon championship races....yea 5 races one weekend
 
Colin's idea of qual/race and qual/race has my support! I've run a weekend with a similar format except with an early practice and a short (10min) qual on Saturday last year with SCCA at the ridge. Why not try something similar? 15min practice and a 10min qual followed by a 25min race for Saturday, then do a 20min qual/30 min race on Sunday. The 10 min qual was intense and a lot of fun. I wouldn't mind going away from the special races if the championship races are improved.
 
It's been awhile since I've really read this very closely.

703. Scheduling of events

A. The grouping of classes for qualifying and racing shall be as designated for race groups in 703. D. and E. Practice sessions shall follow the same rotation whenever possible, but practice groups may be combined with prior approval of the Race Steward. The complete schedule shall be published in the race announcement and distributed prior to the start of the race weekend. TIRE SCRUBBING IS NOT ALLOWED AT ANY TIME DURING PRACTICE AND QUALIFYING SESSIONS. Once a race schedule is published it may be delayed due to circumstances beyond the control of the sponsoring club, but the schedule may not be advanced. (i.e. no practice, qualifying or race will start before its posted time.) The only exception to this is that the Steward may combine race groups into the earlier scheduled start time of the two with the consent of all drivers registered in both groups. A schedule may be changed if it conflicts with Conference rules.

That's easy.jpg

I remember why, now.

I am excruciatingly proud to be a part of an organization that prides itself with it's membership controlled regulations. It takes skill, talent and time for those who volunteer to put these things and themselves together on the same page.
 
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Points

OK, how would the championship points work in a universe where there are 11 race weekends with 3-5 races per weekend? Say for the sake of argument an average of 4. That's 44 championship races instead of the current 14. With the current 10 best finishes rule, you could nail down the championship in 2-3 weekends. That would be a disaster for outlying clubs, as it would make it unnecessary for the Seattle-Portland championship contenders to leave their home tracks/areas.

What if you doubled the minimum to 20? Given our current distribution of race weekends, Westsider low-tow Joe goes to PR twice, The Ridge once, and PIR twice. 5 race weekends and he has his 20 races without ever getting more than 20 miles from I-5. And 20 races is beginning to sound expensive.

What if you mandated that a club could hold some maximum number of championship races per weekend (or per season)? Knock yourselves out and do a 6-race 3-day event, but only 3 of them can be championship races. I don't think that gets people to Spokane or ORP (or Mission) - you can still get your 10 on the West side. Or keep the 10 minimum but mandate that some of them (half?) have to on the far side of an international boundary or major mountain range from your home? Or weight points more heavily at some tracks than others? Tricky... (Glad I've already been points keeper:p)

Or does this even matter at all? Most of us aren't chasing championships. Would the loss of entries from those who are make a difference to the outlying clubs? Greg says some tiny number of entries either way makes or breaks it for NWMS.

I have way more questions than answers, but I do think this needs to be considered in concert with a weekend format change, lest we wind up with the unintended consequence of bankrupting member clubs.
 
Bob

The paradigm we all have is that every race must be a ICSCC Championship Race. They do not. In fact each club is only allowed 3 Championship Races.

So lets say that a club decided to run three weekends of Championship Races (3 total Championship Races) and 3 or 6 non championship 15 to 20 minute sprint races, which by the very fact that they are non-championship races do not count towards the ICSCC Championship, no need to score them unless the club wants to provide a club championship .....

Hmmmm Club Championship........Enduro, 15 minute non-championship sprint, hare and hound, and one or two 30 minute Championship Races.......score them all on a 9,6,4,3,2,1 points with 1/2 point for everyone you beat in class (just like up in Canada) count the best 3 out of 4 finishes and crown overall CW and OW/SR Champions say at a drivers meeting on Sunday in July......just saying......
 
Bob,

I gave this one some thought and honestly what Greg talks about never occurred to me and I quite like it.

What I penned originally was this and it addresses points 2 and 3 from the original post:

1: Conference modifies some by-laws that allows each club to run as many championship races as it desires per weekend but still allotted 3 weekends or 6 championship races per year, whatever comes first. If they wanted to run more class racing (like Greg pointed out) then they can but those races just won't count toward championship points. This is combined with a rule that anyone running for a championship must attend 3 events at 3 tracks outside of their club jurisdiction, example: IRDC member would need to run @ 3 tracks (or 3 other clubs) besides PR/TRMP/IRDC to qualify for championship. We have 6 tracks in the PacNW and 5 clubs, this is doable and IMO, equitable.

2: 49% rule still remains regarding race attendance and championship qualifying but could be modified to be a 75% (round down) rule. Let's say there's 33 points races on the schedule in 2015. I would need to compete in 24 to qualify for a championship (and 24 races would be counted for total points) and theoretically I would still be attending the same number of weekends that I do now, just doing more racing. So right now on a 15 race schedule we could race 7 to qualify but 10 get counted and I'm suggesting on a 33 race schedule, 24 needed to qualify and 24 get counted.

3: By-Law regarding race time, practice time and qualifying is "opened up" so a race could be 25-40 minutes, practices could be eliminated from the schedule (or combined/shortened) and qualifying groups may be combined/shortened.

4: SCR/NWMS or ORP/TC can still have the same "points-value" draw it currently has by hosting a 3 day event with 5-6 championship races in one weekend (25 min races): Fri: Qual/Race/Race Sat: Qual/Race/Race Sun: Race/Race... (or something to that effect) So in this case, NWMS schedule would still be roughly 3x as "points valuable" like it is today.


I feel those 4 points address the expansion of the number championship races, getting racers to outside tracks and maintaining a high-value weekend for clubs like NWMS/TC/SCCBC.

This is a very rough draft, please pick it apart.
 
Good discussion and I hope it continues and is considered. In the end I agree that a change in format that allows more actual 'racing' even if they are not all championship points is still a better format. The main reason I went from just doing track days to joining conference and racing was so I could do more door-to-door racing and passing. We are all competetive folks, that's why we do this, so lets do more racing and less practice/qualifying.
 
As you discuss and agree that some plan is worthy of trying REMEMBER....

Somebody has to go through the rules and find EVERYTHING that needs to be changed to allow your plan to be used and WRITE UP a rules change to be submitted next Fall. That's where the rubber meets the road on every ones commitment to trying a new idea.
 
Colin

We would have to run from dawn to dusk at SCRP to fit 6 25 minute championship races in even as close to the equinox as we run......growing up in Ashland, Ore. I am very aware of the cosmos man.

So the current 3 Championship format works for the Outlander Clubs......the only tweak I would like to see would be the re-introduction of double points events, specifically for the three Outlander Clubs (NWMS, TC, SCCBC).

Why do this?

It is to lower the financial bar to compete for class Championships while maintaining or even raising the competition bar.

Racing for a Championship is not cheap. Outlander double points will not change that, but it would level the race track a bit. Currently you can spend all your budget running the 7 races to qualify, win them all and get beat by someone that runs ten races. No judgement here just the facts.

Last year with 5 races in the bag it became clear that the inaugural FC Championship would come down to either me or Daryl Harsha. Both of us have raced FC for years and our participation was important to us achieving Championship class status. That said we are on different ends of the budget scale. Anyway I contacted Daryl to confirm that like me he planned to run 9 races....he said nope just 8.....I replied OK I will run only 8. I really wanted the Championship, but I was not going to win it by running more races. I think Daryl was a bit shocked.

Anyway back to the double points. What would this proposal do? In 2013 it takes a minimum of 5 weekends at 4 different tracks to score 10 races ( 3 weekends at 3 different tracks to score 7 races). If we allowed racers to count only 1 double points race this would change to a minimum of 4 weekends at 3 different tracks to score 10 races (3 weekends at three different tracks to score 7 races). The floor remains the same, but the ceiling gets lowered.

Would lowering the ceiling while keeping the floor in place increase the number of racers competing for the Championship? Hard to say how many racers who do not bother to run for the Championship because of the high ceiling would run if it only required 2 trips out of town instead of 3. If there is an increase in Championship participation due to double points does the increased competition off set the reduction of current requirement to run 4 different tracks to score maximum points?
Again it is a matter of opinion.

At NWMS we rely on two racer demographics to be successful 1. IRDC and 2. Racers competing for the ICSCC Championship. So if we can get more IRDC racers to compete for ICSCC Championships it is a win for us and more than likely a win for everyone.

Just my 2 baht
 
Martin

Under current rules only IRDC and CSCC would be able to run non-championship 15-20 minute sprint races. Just is not enough time to schedule these on a multi-Championship Race weekend. The only thing that needs to be done is to put the non-championship races on the schedule and pay the head tax and run them as 6 separate special races on Saturday afternoon.

To eliminate the need to run as special races 703 needs to be changed to read a minimum of 15 minutes qualifying or a 15 minute qualifying race per Championship Race.
 
I want to address #4, the economics of the 5 Clubs who make up Conference racing. It takes approximately $30,000 plus for IRDC to put on a race at Pacific. We put down 50% of the total track fee to secure the contract each year. All that the 5 clubs are trying to do each year is generate enough money to race the following year and have enough money to survive a money losing race disaster. They have no choice but to cater to the entry numbers to stay alive. Do the math for Nasa, I've heard from 25 entries to a high of 50 at $400.00 per entry, they lost money. When NASA goes to Portland for an event it will be interesting to see how they do with entries, the number of schools and track days at Portland is more then Seattle.

Does any one wonder why the Seattle region of SCCA does not do stand alone regionals except in conjunction with Nationals, now called Rationals. Look at the entry numbers and it tells the story. Were it not for Vintage and SRF at the SCCA double regional race in Portland last weekend there race would have been a complete economic disaster.

I think the discussion we are having here is great. I have heard some one say they are a member of Conference. We need to have a better understanding of the structure. The 5 clubs put on the races not Conference, it is only the sanctioning body and the clubs control the sanctioning body. If the clubs fail, as one almost did last year, their will be 3 less races. If you are not a member of a member club or affiliate club you do not have a voice and a vote in the rule making process. This discussion is great but doesn't mean a thing unless you get involved at the member club level.

With some sanctioning bodies you have a voice and no vote and it is a lot like praying to God. You hope you are heard but it is hard if not impossible at times to keep the faith.

One more issue, the weakness of Conference is that we have too many classes, the strength of Conference is that we have too many classes. That plays right into people being able to get two races a week end if they want or even more with special races. Again goes back to the entry numbers to make the Club generate enough money to race next year. Rule chances can become a survival issue in several ways and need very careful consideration of all the consequences.

Just my 2 cents
 
Dick is right......follow the money

The reason clubs are hesitant to make broad format changes is because the potential downside is pretty dramatic. At NWMS if we lay an egg or 2 we are done and I am guessing that we are not alone ...... Might even represent the majority.

I can also tell you that Club, ICSCC officers and Race Chairmans are all losing sleep and constantly logging on to MotorSportsReg before every race right up until the break even point is reached !

And as Dick is well aware none of this will keep me from floating ideas lol
 
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