Group 5 black flag @ ORP

colin_koehler

colin_koehler

Great SCOTT!
This made it on another road racing website where I found it, thought I'd share since it seems public.

I am glad Mr. Hedges and the workers were all OK.

 
So... should I be the guy who asks why it looks like it took until the fire was finally out for someone to pull the kill switch? Isn't this exactly the situation for which we have them?

Glad he's okay, though: Brake failures and fires are the only two racing-related things I fear... separately! Together? No bueno.
 
I looked closely at the remains and it appears that when the fenders distorted in the roll it snapped the strut brace which sheared right through the aluminum fitting for the fuel line feeding the rear carburetor. Electric fuel pumps have the ability to move a lot of fuel and I would have to guess that was what was feeding the fire.

I'm just happy the driver reported that he was unhurt and he exited the car quickly at the first sign of flames!
 
The kill switch was drivers right side, right where the flames were whipping up. Ben was fighting the fire solo. It took quite a while for the safety guys to get there. The way Ben described it, he had to fight the fire to get to the kill switch. Something to be side for any driver to try to hit the switch on his way out, since he will know where the switch is located without having to look for a sticker. All in all, the situation was handled pretty well. Ben was smart enough to take not one, but two fire bottles with him. Too bad we don't have more workers on the corner. This was the kind of fire we train to attack from multiple angles. BTW, Ben is in his first season with the Cascade Safety Team. Hi Probie!
 
Kill switches need to mounted drivers left. That is where the driver is located. I have never had a corner work check on me through my passenger window. Makes it easy for them to kill the circuit or better me on the way out.

Good for Douglas getting out of the car unharmed.

Rick
 
I prefer to take away some valuable lessons from this.

1) Nobody expects this to happen to them.

2) Practicing exiting your vehicle is important, how many seconds does it take you? Now close your eyes and do it.

3) Now is a good time to review your safety systems/equipment. What can you improve? DO you see any possible weaknesses.

The driver has been nice enough to share this video of the incident, I for one am going to use this opportunity to review my own safety equipment and postulate how my own car would have been in the same situation. I can already tell, I need to re think where my kill switch is located. As well, I am going to review the positioning of the fire system nozzles, and possibly some sort of anti-rollover kill switch for the fuel pumps as well.
 
I looked all over for the master switch as I approached the car. The wind was strong enough to carry the flames sideways so it seemed nearly impossible to get to the right side of the car. You can see in the video that the flames are being blown across the A-pillar at some points, which was where the master switch was located. After the fire was out I was checking around and underneath the car to make sure it was out. When I made it around to the right side of the car, I was slow on my approach to the switch in the case that the fire ignited again. That was around the time that the truck showed up. I was actually wondering how the truck would get there since the terrain was so rough and it was so far from any part of the track. And I was very relieved to see the driver get out of the car on his own, since I was only about half way to the car at that point, which was well over 100 yds from our turn station.
 
While folks are giving more thought to all this stuff, keep in mind that at some tracks, help can be several minutes away, especially when the turns are short staffed. Short staffing these days is the norm, not the exception.
 
Turfer said:
Kill switches need to mounted drivers left...... Rick
Click to expand...

If you go back to the late 50's early 60's there used to be a rule that on sedans, the Master Kill Switch had to be OUTSIDE the car mounted on the cowl just in front of the windshield or, sticking out through the left fender. I don't know when this idea of mounting the Kill Switch inside the cockpit came in to being but it's a really bad idea.
 
What I posted on youtube:
Watching the video again with a headset on, trying to figure out when the master switch was actually turned off, I can hear that it takes 4 attempts to get the pump to turn off. I first shut the switch off at 4:18. Someone else then makes 3 additional attempts to shut it off by turning it on then back off. I'm curious as to what might have made it stick on, other than possibly the heat. The other 3 attempts occur at 5:15, 5:18, and 5:30. If there were more clicks I could not hear them.
 
Richard Broadhead said:
If you go back to the late 50's early 60's there used to be a rule that on sedans, the Master Kill Switch had to be OUTSIDE the car mounted on the cowl just in front of the windshield or, sticking out through the left fender. I don't know when this idea of mounting the Kill Switch inside the cockpit came in to being but it's a really bad idea.
Click to expand...

The rule probably changed in the 80's/ I had one roll over on my first trip to what is now Pacific in which the fender mounted kill switch was broken off. We had to cut the battery cables. Then there were the jokers who would wait until a driver was strapped in on pre-grid, then walk by and turn off the kill switch of a competitors car. I'd love to see some sort of standardization of kill switch location, but with all the different cars, that is probably a pipe dream. I would go for just inside the drivers window.

Someone commented that the workers have always come to his window rather than the opposite window. I go to the protected side of the car, keeping it between me and traffic. If there is a Safety Truck in a shield position, then I will got to the drivers window. Those of us working on the corners don't go to the car near as much these days due to low numbers of workers. When there are only two, one has to call in to Race Control while the other waves the flags, unless the flames show up.
 
I think it is safe to say that no matter where the kill switch is it is possible for it to be unreachable as a result of a specific incident. Conference rules don't specify an exact location for the switch but do require that it be there, working, and have a sticker visible from the outside to note it's location. A lot of cars used to have them mounted on the cowl just ahead of the windshield which made them accessible from either side but in a position likely to be near an engine bay fire if one occurred. I know from a car construction standpoint it is highly desirable to have the kill switch at least slightly inside the car because when the readily available switches are exposed to weather they can have a pretty high failure rate in a fairly short amount of time. I remember closely examining a Toyota that I thought had a particularly well thought out electrical cut off system that had switches positioned at maybe three places around the car that each operated a solenoid on the battery cables so if any one of them was tripped it disconnected power. Again a lot of extra wiring and switches which have the potential to be a failure item in one's race weekend but a nicely thought out safety feature. If my engineering education and long work history has taught me anything it is that there is almost nothing that is free. Any increase in one area has the potential to cause both intended and unintended liabilities in others.

Outcome for this one was good though -
1) Cage and structure did its job admirably, driver was protected and unharmed and able to extricate himself from the hazard safe and sound.
2) Turn marshals and safety team are angels who descend on chaotic scenes and perform heroic effort to protect participants. Response was excellent and without hesitation.
3) A thoughtful and intelligent conversation has been generated here without drama or hysterics.

I couldn't be prouder of my racing family.
 
rick_bostrom said:
Outcome for this one was good though -
1) Cage and structure did its job admirably, driver was protected and unharmed and able to extricate himself from the hazard safe and sound.
2) Turn marshals and safety team are angels who descend on chaotic scenes and perform heroic effort to protect participants. Response was excellent and without hesitation.
3) A thoughtful and intelligent conversation has been generated here without drama or hysterics.

I couldn't be prouder of my racing family.
Click to expand...

Rick, I always enjoy and learn from your posts...and you hit a home run with your three summary bullet points and the bottom line is pure GOLD. I couldn't participate as a driver or volunteer at ORP this past weekend, yet I learned a lot from the video, related discussions, and I'm very thankfull of the great team we have at every Conference event.

BEEF
Pro3 #242
 
I too appreciate the constructive dialogue.

I'd like to add my 2 cents.

The implementation of fire suppression systems can be done many ways. Here's how I did mine and why I made the choices I did.

I have a 5 lb. remote activated bottle. Many times these things are rated for multiple nozzles, but my philosophy is that the purpose of a hard mounted, high capacity system is to provide me an envelope of protection in the event of a fire, to permit time to escape the situation. I don't have a nozzle in the engine bay at all. This bottle plumbing is routed to a location on the forward left side door area of my car, with a nozzle that has three discharge holes that will spray in a 180 degree pattern. If I activate the system, the entire contents of the system will discharge from the direction I want to go, from the uninvolved to the involved, in theory creating a zone of protection for me to escape.

In addition to this on board system, I also carry an ordinary 2.5 lb. 10ABC rated hand held dry chemical extinguisher that has a robust mount in the car to prevent it from becoming a missile in the event of a hard hit. My thought on this is that this extinguisher can be taken to wherever the fire suppression needs to actually occur, whether it's on my car, or even someone else's car. Who else is in a better position to undertake fire suppression activities than me? I'm already on scene, I'm fully outfitted in safety gear, and I'm most familiar with my own car. Or, I can assist with fire suppression on other incidents when that's indicated. I can't really recommend this enough, to equip your race car with a portable extinguisher. I'm not passing judgment on the incident here, it went really well all things considered, but imagine if the driver had an extinguisher of his own to deploy just as he exited the car.

Finally, I have a 10 lb. bottle with a temperature fuse activated head mounted in the rear part of the car to protect the fuel cell. This system is self deploying.

Regarding kill switch location, mine is on some chassis tubes right in the center of the cockpit area. I can reach it from my seat while fully harnessed in, it can be reached from either side of the car through either window, or through the windshield opening if the lexan happened to be absent. Seems like a pretty good location I guess.
 
I have a hard-mount system in my car, and I've also made the point to have a separate hand-held in the car, too, ever since Steve Pfeiffer's incident at Pacific in which Dave Haire drove up to the incident, pulled his hand-held, and was able to start fire suppression right away.

I'm also pretty impressed that Douglas was able to get out as quickly as he did. Good safety gear aside, the double-whammy of a wild ride ("Now with Rollover!") and a fire right in front of your face means keeping a level head is extra challenging. Well done.
 
First I want to say thanks to everyone that was involved.

Bwilson I especially owe you a beer because you covered some distance to get to that car. I got away from the car and by the time I looked back you were already there fighting the fire. I almost went back to kill the fuel pump because I had my suit and everything on and I knew how to get to the switch from the driver's side. In the end I decided to stay out of your way and let you guys do your thing.

The biggest lesson I learned here was I should've killed the fuel pump and then gotten out of the car. The car did have a fire suppression system but there wasn't any heat or smoke in the car so I didn't think to pull it. The nozzle in the engine bay was knocked loose during the crash so I'm not sure how well it would've worked.

When the car quit rolling I thought'd whew I'm going to sit here and relax. Then the flames flared up and I panicked initially. Then I said to my self calm down, net, steering wheel, belts and dive.

The fuel lines were always pretty taught. At least the right engine mount was destroyed in the crash. My theory is that as the engine crashed into the radiator that something had to give in the fuel line. That 90 degree connector was the weakest link. Longer lines might have allowed everything to flex more in the crash.

In another forum someone had mentioned a safer way to wire a fuel pump using a oil pressure switch which would've killed the fuel pump when the engine stalled.
http://www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/electric-fuel-pump.html

Photo Album

IMG_20150527_104040135.jpg
 
I like Randy's idea of a thermo switch actuated system in the fuel cell area. I have an old halon system that is actuated by hitting a mechanical knob. My kill switch is mounted within an easy arms reach in the center of my car. G
 
You guys mentioning the 'center cockpit" mounted kill switches seem pretty happy with the idea. I as an age retired ex driver and corner worker am NOT! If I'm coming up to your car which is on fire including flames inside the cockpit, it's very unlikely that I'm going to be able to reach inside to hit the kill switch. After all, that is about 75% of the reason for the kill switches (to be activated by a corner worker trying to deal with a burning car).

I do appreciate the drivers enjoying the feeling of being in charge with the kill switch perfectly located within your reach inside the cockput. But, you are looking at the ideal scenario. Crash and you are fully capable of taking action. Somebody mentioned Steve's crash at Pacific. Let me assure you, post crash, he was NOT in charge. He was unconscious until after Ricky got him out of the car and totally dependent upon corner workers and safety crew to keep him safe from the fire. The point is, you are in real danger if the Kill switch is in a difficult location for the corner worker to see or find it.

For the driver, most kill switches come with a pull chord extension that can be set up to allow the driver to actuate it from the cockpit on a properly located 'externally' mounted one.
 
Most kill switches do not come with a pull cord although I have seen a lot of creative ones fabbed up by drivers and almost invariably the cord is routed to the outside for volunteers to use from a switch mounted inside that is close at hand for the driver and for weather protection. The simple truth is that almost every kill switch will go it's entire functional life without once being operated by a marshal in an emergency. Don't get me wrong - in that critical case it is essential that it be operable by someone but I would suspect that at least half of those situations are ones where the driver operates it. It's almost certain that if the driver CAN operate it that will be the quickest way it will be done. I can remember being concerned about the cowl mounted one on my old Rx7 which would not be operable by either the driver OR the marshal if it was on it's lid! I have a car that I have never run that has a centrally mounted interior kill switch with a cable pull to the passenger side. It can only be used to shut the switch off under tension because it isn't stiff enough to exert any force under compression. That way it can't inadvertently be bumped and shut the car down and there is no question for the marshal whether they are turning it off or on.

Someone else who was at ORP was relating the exact same reasoning that Randy stated above and it has definitely opened my eyes to something that I never thought about. I have a fire system but having a hand held in addition could make a difference in situations where one of your competitors was on fire, a specific part of your own car was igniting or reigniting and you are safely out, or a grass fire was just starting and could be snuffed before it became a major firefight.
 
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