Group 2 start and wreck
- Thread starter volvo242
- Start date
Ouch - I am going to edit some of my footage (had a camera on my rear bumper) as it had an interesting angle from the front of the pack.
How many cars took some sort of damage in that incident? I know Josh (944)felt terrible about the scenario, but had no clue what all went wrong as he felt two sets of bumps before the big collision.
Hope we can keep Turn 2-3 a lot smoother at PR in two weeks since I'm sure the grid will only be bigger and closer on lap times!
I had a blast in the race overall and thought we all kept it very clean with those I was racing with...just hope I can get MY car racing and not my cousin's car.
How many cars took some sort of damage in that incident? I know Josh (944)felt terrible about the scenario, but had no clue what all went wrong as he felt two sets of bumps before the big collision.
Hope we can keep Turn 2-3 a lot smoother at PR in two weeks since I'm sure the grid will only be bigger and closer on lap times!
I had a blast in the race overall and thought we all kept it very clean with those I was racing with...just hope I can get MY car racing and not my cousin's car.
robjacobsen
The Pros From Dover
I laid hands on three and saw at least three more limping away. Dave Dunning took the worst and was unable to drive away. Frank DiMicelli managed to limp as far as the T6 station and get behind the wall while peering over the top of a buckled hood. Jason Brassfield finished his race after picking up a bunch of minor front end damage. I believe that one of the other limping cars made it to the split drivers left at turn 8. It was definitely a pig pile there for a bit.
Driver of Safety II.
Lynn Rimmer
Good2Go
You are lucky Robbie that there weren't more cars to attend to when the only RED flag put out was at start/finish with cars flying through Turn 12 to find the field stopped on the front straight.
Someone needs to read and follow the damned rule book. Complete disregard to the flagging rules is not safe as we turn workers cannot relay IMPORTANT information to the drivers.
Flying around a blind turn to come upon cars that have been stopped, to my way of thinking, is frigging important.
(I'm still a little steamed about this and this is twice now this has happened)
The Red Flag rule has been around for about 7 years and it is not something that can be just be played with willy nilly. No one has the power to abitrarily change the rules. Someone is going to get hurt.
Someone needs to read and follow the damned rule book. Complete disregard to the flagging rules is not safe as we turn workers cannot relay IMPORTANT information to the drivers.
Flying around a blind turn to come upon cars that have been stopped, to my way of thinking, is frigging important.
(I'm still a little steamed about this and this is twice now this has happened)
The Red Flag rule has been around for about 7 years and it is not something that can be just be played with willy nilly. No one has the power to abitrarily change the rules. Someone is going to get hurt.
robjacobsen
The Pros From Dover
Over the radio net, it was called as "All Turns Red Flag". Guess that didn't make it to the landline, eh? Agree, we need a tune up on that. It also took a long time before we were allowed to go. Not sure why, but I know that race control doesn't like for us to go without a request from the turn. Gary was in the back of the truck chanting "let us go, let us go". Not one of our finest moments. We did make short work of the cleanup once we were released.
Ken Killam
Fats
*poof* between T5-T6 after the green. FCY called as leader was through T8. Pace car collected the pack on the front staight, and took the pack around very slowly Dr Left of the carnage, but pretty much had the whole field behind him and under control save those cars that had been involved and went into the pits. Even so we got a chance to review the White Flag waving for the end of the pack (not the Pace Car).
I saw one car, maybe Jason, come down the straight as a straggler, Safety II at this time was following the pack to shield up and secure the area with blinky lights and fluorescent attire.
At this point, S/F was instructed to put out a red flag, and the Pace Car was instructed to stop at S/F. Certainly a different way to "Stop" the cars and they weren't spread out all around the track.
A Black Flag All would have had the Pace Car bring the field into the pits instead. Fortunately, the field had completed the first racing lap under FCY and there was no need to re-configure the grid to original starting positions which can take a very, very... very long time.
A question did come to mind. When the race has been stopped under Black Flag, where it is the Steward's decision whether to keep the clock running or not, is it allowed to work on the car while the clock IS running, but to stop if a "Red Flag" is called to stop the clock? The cars already stopped in the pits would not require waving reds around the course... But I over-think, perhaps.
Everyone left with all their fingers and all their 'tows'. Except #29. Frank got a ride in with Safety, but the car had to wait for about 3 races as it was too busy for Wrecker-Mitch in the single, but mighty Sargeant's Big Baby Boomer Bumper Buggy Tyrannasaurous Wrecker. Safety II crew had done some re-forming of the bonnet so flat-tow was possible again, and we eventually pushed #29 across track, to it's driver with Roosster 'Chasing' around looking for something to hang on his strap.
Anyway, that's my story from T6/Comm
I saw one car, maybe Jason, come down the straight as a straggler, Safety II at this time was following the pack to shield up and secure the area with blinky lights and fluorescent attire.
At this point, S/F was instructed to put out a red flag, and the Pace Car was instructed to stop at S/F. Certainly a different way to "Stop" the cars and they weren't spread out all around the track.
A Black Flag All would have had the Pace Car bring the field into the pits instead. Fortunately, the field had completed the first racing lap under FCY and there was no need to re-configure the grid to original starting positions which can take a very, very... very long time.
A question did come to mind. When the race has been stopped under Black Flag, where it is the Steward's decision whether to keep the clock running or not, is it allowed to work on the car while the clock IS running, but to stop if a "Red Flag" is called to stop the clock? The cars already stopped in the pits would not require waving reds around the course... But I over-think, perhaps.
Everyone left with all their fingers and all their 'tows'. Except #29. Frank got a ride in with Safety, but the car had to wait for about 3 races as it was too busy for Wrecker-Mitch in the single, but mighty Sargeant's Big Baby Boomer Bumper Buggy Tyrannasaurous Wrecker. Safety II crew had done some re-forming of the bonnet so flat-tow was possible again, and we eventually pushed #29 across track, to it's driver with Roosster 'Chasing' around looking for something to hang on his strap.
Anyway, that's my story from T6/Comm
mikecolangelo
Well-known member
Strange. As Lynn points out, the rule book (section E/C 1501.I (page 104) states:
I. Red Flag
1. A red flag shall be positioned at all manned turn stations
and the Starter’s stand.
2. When a red flag is displayed, it shall be waved only.
EXTREME DANGER – THE SESSION HAS BEEN
STOPPED. No passing allowed when a red flag is
displayed.
3. Should a driver encounter a red flag, it is the driver’s
responsibility to come to an immediate and controlled stop
with regard to other cars, at the side of the track. Stay in
your car and wait for instructions from an Official. When
released by an Official, proceed with extreme caution to
the hot pits.
4. This flag shall only be used on instruction from the Race
Chair/Race Steward or their nominee(s) and will be
shown around the entire circuit.
#1 and #4 tell us that the red flags should be flown at all manned turn stations and the start/finish.
I. Red Flag
1. A red flag shall be positioned at all manned turn stations
and the Starter’s stand.
2. When a red flag is displayed, it shall be waved only.
EXTREME DANGER – THE SESSION HAS BEEN
STOPPED. No passing allowed when a red flag is
displayed.
3. Should a driver encounter a red flag, it is the driver’s
responsibility to come to an immediate and controlled stop
with regard to other cars, at the side of the track. Stay in
your car and wait for instructions from an Official. When
released by an Official, proceed with extreme caution to
the hot pits.
4. This flag shall only be used on instruction from the Race
Chair/Race Steward or their nominee(s) and will be
shown around the entire circuit.
#1 and #4 tell us that the red flags should be flown at all manned turn stations and the start/finish.
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robjacobsen
The Pros From Dover
The bit in 3 about returning to the pits would have sent everyone there rather than to the restart. A bit of clarification would seem to be in order at the fall meeting. I agree that it should have been red at all stations.
Steve Adams
Just this guy, ya know?
That would seem to be easily solved by the Steward making the call to return to S/F instead of the pits and then, when someone from the flag station comes out to tell the "lead" driver in each zone what to do, say to proceed slowly to S/F for a pace car restart. Ninety percent of that trip is the same as to the pits and none of the drivers are going to behave any differently.
Ken Killam
Fats
It's very common to have an FCY to gather some control over the field and then BFA to bring them into the pits. Once there, if it is decided by the appropriate authority that they must move up to S/F for some reason, then it is simple.
I'm not sure why they need to be on the front straight as opposed to the pits, but it was simply a by-product of the overall situation as things progressed.
And you are correct, Steve. The Steward should indeed be making those Red and Black Flag calls. At least as soon as he/she is properly informed, and has a chance to catch up to the reality of the situation. What is a good time frame for that to efficiently occur? I suppose that it depends on the severity of the situation, and how much radio traffic there is to cut through at the time.
Otherwise, and historically, the communicator(s) in Base Comm are forced into the position of making hard and fast decisions based on the information available from observers on and off of the course, then make every attempt to act in accordance to those regulations to the best knowledge of those individuals in Base Comm, as they may have read, studied, discussed and understood those regulations.
Here I go throwin' the 'book' at it again, but with numerous Asst. Stewards, and Asst. Race Chairpeople for various elements of the race weekend, the processes of operations weakest link is really the most important, and dangerous element of the event; true control of the cars of course. The Steward, and in some cases the Race Chairman are the authorities that carry the responsibility of those calls and safety controls. Command flag calls usually need to be more immediate than are allowed under the current operational deployment of those responsible individuals.
Argue as one might, but "Control" is NOT the communicator(s) sitting up in a tower with a headset, a microphone and a logged record. "CONTROL" is the combination of efforts of those individuals assigned the responsiblity of knowing, applying and enforcing the sanctions regulations for the events' control. From communication from the turns, the Safety/E-Crew teams, Pre-Grid... and so on. Every specialty is an element of control. The Steward, the Race Chairman, the License Director. These are the people that are ultimately responsible for the efficient operation and "CONTROL" of the race event and all that it entails.
I expect some, "That's the way we've always done it." retort, but it's time to look at some of these operational priorities as Conference continues to grow and become less amateur and more professional to accomodate a demanding market to do so.
But I am merely an informed observer. FWIW.
I'm not sure why they need to be on the front straight as opposed to the pits, but it was simply a by-product of the overall situation as things progressed.
And you are correct, Steve. The Steward should indeed be making those Red and Black Flag calls. At least as soon as he/she is properly informed, and has a chance to catch up to the reality of the situation. What is a good time frame for that to efficiently occur? I suppose that it depends on the severity of the situation, and how much radio traffic there is to cut through at the time.
Otherwise, and historically, the communicator(s) in Base Comm are forced into the position of making hard and fast decisions based on the information available from observers on and off of the course, then make every attempt to act in accordance to those regulations to the best knowledge of those individuals in Base Comm, as they may have read, studied, discussed and understood those regulations.
Here I go throwin' the 'book' at it again, but with numerous Asst. Stewards, and Asst. Race Chairpeople for various elements of the race weekend, the processes of operations weakest link is really the most important, and dangerous element of the event; true control of the cars of course. The Steward, and in some cases the Race Chairman are the authorities that carry the responsibility of those calls and safety controls. Command flag calls usually need to be more immediate than are allowed under the current operational deployment of those responsible individuals.
Argue as one might, but "Control" is NOT the communicator(s) sitting up in a tower with a headset, a microphone and a logged record. "CONTROL" is the combination of efforts of those individuals assigned the responsiblity of knowing, applying and enforcing the sanctions regulations for the events' control. From communication from the turns, the Safety/E-Crew teams, Pre-Grid... and so on. Every specialty is an element of control. The Steward, the Race Chairman, the License Director. These are the people that are ultimately responsible for the efficient operation and "CONTROL" of the race event and all that it entails.
I expect some, "That's the way we've always done it." retort, but it's time to look at some of these operational priorities as Conference continues to grow and become less amateur and more professional to accomodate a demanding market to do so.
But I am merely an informed observer. FWIW.
michael_conatore
I love endurance racing!
Seems to me that the only thing that didn't go right in this situation is that the red flag call was not simultaneously given on the radio and the land line. The Stewards were made aware of the situation and approved the requested RFA. From what I have heard, that call went out to the starter on the radio, but apparently did not go out to the turn stations on the land line, or was somewhat delayed. I agree that not getting that critical message out in a timely manner increased the risk of additional accidents. Thankfully we dodged a bullet this time. We need to make sure that all Communicators are clear about such protocols.
I am open to hearing other opinions about this specific situation and what actually occurred.
Mike Conatore
Race Steward
I am open to hearing other opinions about this specific situation and what actually occurred.
Mike Conatore
Race Steward
Steve Adams
Just this guy, ya know?
You know, Ken, "you guys" (all the men/women working the flag stations, radios, trucks, etc) are actually victims of your own abilities... I wonder how many other drivers, like me, think of the whole flagging/communicating/recovery operation as something not too far south of a magical mystery. We don't know how it works, but it just kinda does, and so well that it seems automatic and painless.
Not so much, huh?
Not so much, huh?
Ken Killam
Fats
Steve, we all try but for our love of racing's essence and keeping it 'green'. There's some magic, for sure. What color it may be at any given time is determined in the final outcome.
"Transparent to the end user." is (or was) a common phrase in the customer service/marketing trade. Which considers that the 'customer' shouldn't be bothered with every detail when they are presented with the quality of the final product.
"Transparent to the end user." is (or was) a common phrase in the customer service/marketing trade. Which considers that the 'customer' shouldn't be bothered with every detail when they are presented with the quality of the final product.
robjacobsen
The Pros From Dover
You know, Ken, "you guys" (all the men/women working the flag stations, radios, trucks, etc) are actually victims of your own abilities... I wonder how many other drivers, like me, think of the whole flagging/communicating/recovery operation as something not too far south of a magical mystery. We don't know how it works, but it just kinda does, and so well that it seems automatic and painless.
Not so much, huh?
That is one of the reasons behind a discussion I had with our License Director about an additional line item to be signed off for the novices. I was suggesting a tour of the safety equipment and a discussion with the safety chief. That way, some of those blanks about how this stuff works and our procedures. It would be an item to be signed off in the novice log books, right there with working in T&S, corners and grid. Bob seemed to like the idea.
djjerme
Well-known member
Oh trust me, working that corner station all day, I got to understand how the "system" worked from a turn workers POV. But then again, I asked a TON of questions, and made sure I understood how everything played out in different situations. It was helpful too that the Turn Marshall(s) were well experienced and very helpful. We were all thinking it was strange that they didn't give us a RFA call, and were only doing it at Start finish. IIRC our landline person even asked if it was RFA, and got a response of "no".
Ken Killam
Fats
For one thing, the track was NOT completely blocked. There was a path around the left. Recovery and clean up could have been accomplished although hindered without stopping the cars, but I'm sure the Safety Team appreciated not having them in the way. And the track was in better shape and sooner, for the re-start because of it.
I was happy to have the opportunity to tell some old stories to new people as a couple three novice drivers helped us flag and get into the rhythm of racing. I extended our invitation to host them any time that they may not be able to sit in their best seats.
Alex gets to listen in on Comm next time, I promised.
I was happy to have the opportunity to tell some old stories to new people as a couple three novice drivers helped us flag and get into the rhythm of racing. I extended our invitation to host them any time that they may not be able to sit in their best seats.
Alex gets to listen in on Comm next time, I promised.
schwank
Code X Motorsports
Can't speak to the comm but as a driver I was actually waiting for the red as on our FCY lap you could see it needed to be cleaned up and it wasn't safe for the workers to do so in that location. I think you guys did a great job getting things cleaned up and getting us back racing quickly. My gratitude for your efforts as always!