Contact

jeff_remfert

Well-known member
Hear is the question: Is it customary for a driver that contacts another, to seek out the contacted driver and apologize/reason with or explain the contact?

This is why I ask. (three different team drivers BTW)
The Ridge, last year, rear ended, bent exhaust, no visit. (Driver could not be identified in the mirror)
The last race at Portland, hit in the door and rear fender in turn 1, no visit. (Driver could not be identified in the mirror) Our other car, hit in the rear portion of the rear fender same corner, no visit. (Driver could not be identified in the mirror)

So, other than the $1k in damage to our cars, if we had them fixed by others, what ever happened to a quick visit and discussion? I find this lack of consideration disturbing. I will not make the assumption, nor should others, that it is endemic to one class or group, but I truly believe that each one of us should really ask ourselves if "rubin' is truly racin". Just because it wasn't reported, does not mean that it didn't happen or is in anyway acceptable.

Stuff happens, just step up and show a little respect for your fellow racer and their equipment.

Jeff
 
How funny... the only two times I've ever apologized for an on-track incident have been to Retro Racing drivers:

  • Once, way back when, I apologized after a qualifying session to either Jeff or Terry for taking a line exiting 3a at Pacific without properly checking my mirrors. It was only through his alertness that I didn't get rear-ended.
  • At Spokane in 2008, I tapped the right-rear corner of the (an?) RX-7 at the apex of the second hairpin. It broke all kinds of fiberglass on my car, but only dented the small panel between the wheel and the bumper on the Mazda... didn't even scratch the paint!

I've also had drivers come to me and apologize for near-contact, or holding me up in a corner, or whatever. In every case, it's been with drivers that have been around a while or who knew me personally.

If someone just drops in for the occasional Conference race, is there less of an incentive to apologize for an incident or almost-incident because of a lack of fraternity (this isn't my usual group of fellow racers), a lack of familiarity (I don't know anybody, much less the Other Driver), some sort of perceived intimidation (I'm new to racing and/or this group, I'm embarrassed, and I don't want someone to get in my face), or something else?

If it's someone who's been with Conference for a while... well, I can't really think of an excuse for them. If you made a mistake, 'fess up. If you almost made a mistake, it seems beneficial to everyone to talk it over, maybe to get inside the other driver's head a little and see what you (or they!) did "wrong."

Oh, and one other item, which Jeff didn't quite say but I will: We all know of classes, typically spec classes, where some level of increased "rubbin'" contact is accepted by the competitors. (Spec Miatas bump-drafting, for example.) That's up to the drivers in that class to police, in my view, but where I start getting pissed is where someone in a class like that applies that same philosophy to my car, in another class, simply because our cars are evenly matched. Given nobody in-class to race with, I'll happily race whoever's around, but I don't understand someone who will fight tooth-and-nail in that scenario to the point of incidental contact when that particular battle has no positive value to your season, but could very well have some significant negative value.
 
Not to make excuses, but it's amazing how few drivers seem to clearly remember the car they made contact with unless they know the driver or it happened right at the end of the session. The fact that your driver couldn't identify the car behind may amazingly be duplicated by the driver in the car behind! I was tapped by a Pro3 car quite a few seasons ago and their number had already grown to the point that just knowing "it was a blue one" or "it was a green one" wasn't enough to actually identify them!

I remember when I was in a much slower car in Groups 1 and 5 (bet Admin Steve has a lot of the same memories!) and I could identify the driver of nearly every car in either group in the rear view mirror by the time they popped into view at turn 9 while I was entering the kink becasue I knew they were likely to be lapping me somewhere in or out of turn 2. I don't know if things have changed for the rank and file members but I got to know almost everyone in the groups I ran in and ALWAYS went to apologize on those rare occasions when I lost someone in the mirrors and they looked out for me or when I had a "moment" when somebody elses good driving saved both of us a lot of work. Those visits almost always lead to something good and a much closer bond between racers, I strongly encourage it. I've gotten several of those visits over the years as well, and about 7/8ths of them always end up positive. Frankly there was a driver who had been with Conference for decades who caved my door in then sneered at me as he drove by my pits after the race and never came to talk to me. My opinion of him was destroyed and the sad thing is that it was not because he had come up short of talent on the track - it was becasue he didn't come talk to me about it afterward. Don't like him to this day maybe 12 years later, and I basically like everybody!

I was lucky - when I started racing nearly every super dumb, overdriving, undertalented move that led to me being crossed up sideways and out of control typically occured directly in front of Mac Russell and anybody with a crossed orange square on their car is as safe as a babe in it's mothers arms around him. He and other talented gentleman drivers I got to run with gave me an example of where I wanted to be and I am still working on getting there.

(PS - I probably would have all kinds of incidents with Jeff Remfert back in the day, but he was beating me so bad in EIP that I rarely saw more than a glimpse of the taillights on his Datsun roadster when they dropped the green! Just jokin Jeff!)
 
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I usually only crash into friends, so it's pretty easy to go ask them why the f**k they were in MY way.

Seriously, the few incidents I have been involved in, it's been very interesting how the perspective of things can be some widely different. Many times there is a lot more to it than what you see in the moment. Maybe the people you have had contact with feel like you were at fault, and expected a visit from you...?

Have you noticed how the pros on tv these days pretty much refrain from commenting when the microphone is stuffed in their face immediately after getting out of the car, usually saying something along the lines of wanting to see the video first.

Don't know if this adds anything to the discussion.

I do know I got tangled up with a friend at the season opener and felt terrible. I went down to talk with the guy immediately, and we discussed things. Maybe some people are reluctant because they anticipate some ugliness, I know I didn't reach out to a guy in Mission because I heard how pissed him and his whole crew was. Wouldn't have been productive. Tried following up later, but wasn't receptive. Oh well.
 
That is actually a pretty strong point - I had an incident a few years ago where a driver managed to get his front wheel even with my rear bumper right at the apex of turn two at Pacific. It was the first lap and all of us on slicks are struggling a bit until the pressure comes up on the tires, but I turned in for the apex thinking we were all kind of shaken out into position and falling into line. Apparently thats not what the guy behind thought because when I came to track edge at the apex he was still trying to get under me. The tube bar under the skin of my rear bumper broke through the fiberglas of the bodywork and cut the sidewall out of his front tire. It ended his race and when I came back to the paddock he was really upset because in his recollection he was all the way alongside me and cut down on him and left him no space.

I felt pretty bad because I knew him at least a little and knew the guy who owned the car he rented pretty well and I never want to put somebody out through carelessness. As it turned out there was a car directly behind both of us that had a crystal clear picture of exactly what happened. While it pretty much bore out that it was a very optimistic place for him to have put his nose, I have to admit it wasn't exactly how EITHER of us had pictured it in our heads.

Probably wise to cool off, think about it until you can be objective, then go talk while assuming both parties may have substantially different accounts of the appropriateness of actions and assignments of fault.
 
All good points, and to Rick, anyone who sees you coming for them in the mirror, WILL drive faster!
Please don't get me wrong here, I'm not angry about the contact. As I said, stuff happens, rather I am disappointed by the reaction or lack there of. The question is about expectation, am I expecting too much to have the discussion? I can see multiple reasons and interpretations of the incidents, I just don't see the respect in not seeking out the parties involved. If I could identify the parties, we would have made an effort to have the talk. Trust me, I've had them before....
Yes, Steve is right, I did not mention that the incidents involved spec racers, mostly because they were not racing in a spec group at the time. But to Steve's point, has it become, or has it always been, considered "ok" to have minor contact in those or other groups and does that carry over to me and mine?
We are NOT a hard group to find, and considering our cars were seen through a windshield instead of a rear view mirror, I don't believe identification to be an issue. I just don't know if there are racers out there that believe that contact, regardless of fault/penalty/damage, is not an issue, thus the question. Not judging, just asking.
Is it, or has "minor" contact become acceptable (not by the clubs, corners or stewards) by the drivers in conference? What, if any, should be the expectation of a fellow driver be, or more plainly put, what is the racing Etiquette that we wish to encourage in these situations?
The edge of a very steep slope begins with a waning of respect, for every ten minor incidents, there will be a serious one. I would just rather have the discussion now than later.....

Jeff
 
I do definitely think there are people out there for whom some level of contact is not only expected, but acceptable. (Why that is, I don't know.) I also know there are people out there for whom ANY level of contact is so unacceptable that they don't race as hard as they could (should?). I think most of us fall in the middle somewhere, where we really don't want contact and try very hard to avoid, but it does happen sometimes, and for any number of reasons.

Really, though, I think Jeff's point about respect is important. However casual anyone might feel about damage to their own car, it's important to remember that the other party might not feel that way, or for whom some level of damaged equipment might be a season-ender. And, as Rick's pointed out, we all have different views of what might've happened, and talking about things (or watching the video) is a great way to not only find out what really did happen, but potentially clear the air, as well.
 
I've approached every person I've ever made contact with whether it was a basketball sized dent in their door or a simple bump draft. I had an expensive incident with another driver last year and this year, we paddock together.

I've been hit 3 times, 2 of them didn't have the *character* to visit me in the paddock. That's how I view it, low character. Man up (or Lady up) and go apologize.

Jeff, maybe run a reverse camera so you can capture who done it. Then protest them so a visit from the steward can remind them that they are driving beyond their talent.
 
I had my first contact at ORP this year and when the race was over I went to the other driver to apologize And explain that I thought he was giving me the lane or wouldn't have taken the inside. Luckily his car wasnt damaged but I paid a price for my mistake having a pretty good bit of work to repair the car.
Bottom line for me as a newer racer is I don't want to damage your car or mine but know stuff will happen. Friendly apologies or at least explanation seems appropriate. Maybe we need to add this lesson to the novice program ?
 
This thread will not likely solve the unsolved mystery but hopefully keep the sportsmanship alive in ICSCC.

Good discussion and good points all around... Randy's opening line wins so far for a laugh / honest answer stand point.


A couple years ago I was in Spokane for my first ICSCC race and I had some contact on the first day there. After the session I sought out the other party and we each had our differing opinions. It was to the point where I felt we both were pretty angry with each other. Stewards were of course involved because the flaggers saw it (and I spun up the hillside in old T1). You could say that weekend we were both just keeping our distance when off the race track.

Later that same weekend I went in deep into T2 and made a big pass after having a fantastic battle. My car didnt stick well and the passee picked the wrong way to go (left or right) which ended both our weekends. I was a little unsure of how this conversation would go based on the first incident. I knew I had to talk to him to explain my side as well as apologize for my error. We had a great conversation even though his car was closer to totaled than mine. It was what we both felt a kinda of 50/50 incident. Each of us likely in our head thinking the other was in error more but agreed its racing.

I share those two examples as my FIRST conference race ever. Thankfully since then I have only had contact two other times.... And in both cases discussions happened. My point is I did the seeking all 4 times even though twice I felt I cause it and twice I felt I didn't do anything wrong. Jeff it's tough when you don't know who may have done it... I am sure you walked the paddock looking for damage or seeking information. That always helps... Especially turn 1 @ PIR you can just find out who had folks in the grandstands and seek them out.


Most recently in May i was renting a car (first time for me) and during the test n tune session I was closing on a car within my class. I noticed a few behaviors out of place but failed to check up and wait. I ended up inside of this person in 5b thinking he gave me room, he clearly never saw me and was just taking a different line than most at it. Sure enough I couldn't stop in time and caught the last 4 inches of his bumper/rocker panel. I sent him down the hillside and I never left the pavement. I felt terrible for many reasons and I knew he was going to be irate mainly because it was test n tune of all things.

I wasted no time (protip: maybe wait 15-20 mins after the tow truck leaves) to go and talk to him about what happened and openly apologize because regardless of what I saw & did I was at fault. He didnt quite absorb everything I was saying but in talking with him later he certainly appreciated that I could at least explain what I did.


So my whole reason for response was not to call anyone out, but if you are reading this and want some perspective of how it can go down there you go. If you are a racer who has never confronted another driver (regardless of error), a soon to be driver wondering how that goes or maybe feel you might be the one who hit one of the teams cars in the original post... Be comfortable that nothing bad will happen as a result.

In all the cases of my contact (aside from the new one BC I haven't raced since) these drivers are even more comfortable when racing alongside me because we talk more often in the paddock than we ever did.
 
everytime I have contact or leave the track infront of someone just incase I showered them with rocks, which I dont think is very often I go and talk about it. meet someone new to me try and make a friend. this last race weekend my car was being rented by an area driver during qual contact was made with a faster car going for a small window. no damage to my car and I don't think any on their's but both drivers were looking for each other on multiple times until they finally met and talked about it and had a good time.
 
I agree that it's just good sportsmanship to look up whoever you hit and discuss/apologize or whatever. As some have already said, perspectives can be different and in the heat of the action things can feel different. The first race at PIR this season I had my first contact with another car as we were going into T7 3 wide and I was on the inside...I braked a little late and understeered into the fellow to my left who turned-in and we banged. He spun off and I was able to continue. After the race I walked up and down the paddock trying to find the owner but unfortunately never did find him or a damaged car (I was minor). Last weekend I was struck behind in the chicane and spun off the track. After the race I was a little upset that nobody came to apologize or acknowledge the incident. However, the next morning I was approached by the driver who apolgized and we had a good discussion and went away with no hurt feelings and met a new person in the paddock. In the end I think it works out for the best to hook up and chat about it...but try to wait until cooler heads prevail if you are a little jacked up. :0)
 
When I was a newly minted area driver I made a bonehead move that caused Tom Miller to have to go evasive. There was no contact or spinning involved, but he was in a battle with another car and I cost him some time. I didn't know Tom then - he was just the guy in the Fiero. After the race I was talking to friends and asked what I should do. Go talk to him was the unanimous advice. So I did, nervously. I expected to get a stern dressing down at best. Instead Tom was gracious, forgiving, and said the thing that mattered to him was not the on-track incident, but that I came and talked to him about it. Rookie racer learns important lesson.

I don't know what I'd have done if I hadn't been told by senior drivers that going to find the other guy was the right thing. So I guess the critical point is that the culture of respect that we have needs constant reinforcement. By starting this thread Jeff has contributed to that. I hope what's happened to him lately is just a string of bad luck.
 
I think we will bring up this topic at our first driver's meeting in Spokane. Personally I think it is imperative that we maintain the spirit of sportsmanship in Conference. Sharing our moments on track, be it contact or a close race with another driver is part of this. As Bob has mentioned, perhaps there are those who have not had the benefit of a mentor and are not aware of the etiquette of club racing.

As a footnote I will also mention the perils of being friends with Randy......
 
I think that's a great idea! Maybe a refresher on why we are all out there would make a difference.

thanks Terry!

BTW, still have the family size Krackin unopened....Spokane is going to be fuuuuunnnnn!!!
 
My 2 cents

Anyone who thinks that breaking someone else's car is an acceptable form of racing should go find a different form of racing--one where demolition is the main point.
You can do whatever you want to yourself, but when you do it to someone else, you are responsible to make amends in some way.

We have a great deal of fun when we drive hard but clean. The days where there is alot of carnage, lots of people go home upset and disappointed and looking at more money out the window--Not the way to have good racing or attract more participants.

People need to remember too how much time and money goes into building our cars--many of us do not have the money or time to just get a car fixed right back up for the next race. It could be a very long and difficult process. Damage thins our fields and takes competitors out of the game.
 
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I had my first contact at ORP this year and when the race was over I went to the other driver to apologize And explain that I thought he was giving me the lane or wouldn't have taken the inside. Luckily his car wasnt damaged but I paid a price for my mistake having a pretty good bit of work to repair the car.
Bottom line for me as a newer racer is I don't want to damage your car or mine but know stuff will happen. Friendly apologies or at least explanation seems appropriate. Maybe we need to add this lesson to the novice program ?

I was the person Curt had contact with at ORP. As chance would have it there was no damage to my car other than a little of Curt's white paint on my driver side rear wheel. His corvette definitely got the worst of the contact. Curt came over, apologized, we talked. I considered it a class-act move on Curt's part.

Kevin Smith
AS Firebird #03
 
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