2nd entry cost vs entries in general

is cost vs track time keeping you from away races?

  • yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • no

    Votes: 2 100.0%

  • Total voters
  • Poll closed .

Vince Vavrosky

Active member
Question to the masses. Hypothetically : If 2nd entry fees were reduced, allowing drivers to get more track time for their dollar, would drivers find more value in racing with ICSCC/CSCC and maybe come out to a race they normally would not attend? Would it be a worth while effort for a club to drastically reduce the cost of a 2nd entry?

if you have 120 race entries and of those entries you have 14 2nd entries at say $150 each equaling $2100. Would you be able to double the amount of 2nd entries if you were to cut the cost in half? Or would some of the drivers that normally do not travel be willing to travel to a track that was offering an opportunity to double their track time for say half the normal additional cost?

Would you be more likely to attend an away race if you could double your track time for $50-$75?


Great SCOTT!
The idea in itself is intriguing and could be a viable approach to draw in the Luckydog crowd who places a higher value on track time per dollar. I'm not sure if it would get me to an away race that I would otherwise not attend though but that doesn't mean it wouldn't spark growth.

Thinking about racing where I generally wouldn't would be PIR w/o the chicane - not my favorite so I usually skip the first cascade weekend. However if the format changed to just more racing that would sway me.

I put more value on race-time as opposed to track-time. Since a normal race weekend was traditionally: Practice-qual-qual-race and lately it's been qual->(NP)race->qual->(P) race. If Cascade started doing a Qual-race-race-race format I'd be ALL OVER THAT. I did the Fall Finale with Sovren that was Qual-race-race-race-race-race over two days and I loved it, but then again the entry fee was higher.


Sovren generally has shorter races too, something that has been consistently voted down by ICSCC drivers. The other problem is the number of run groups, groups 3 and 6 have been combined at some events, but another group is generally added to the schedule. This does nothing to add to the amount of track time drivers enjoy, maybe a club should experiment with 5 run groups (plus novice if the numbers warrant), and shorter but more frequent track sessions for each group.


Well-known member
As you will recall Vince, IRDC has been doing qual, non-points race on Saturday (IIRC 20 minutes) and points race on Sunday with the Sat. race qualifying if you want. Been doing this for several years. It has been well received. So a double race weekend with the cost of your entry. Except for cars like yours and mind and formula cars,we don't have the opinion of a second entry. A single race weekend has to be the most boring weekend possible for me! Many other tin tops do have a 3rd race weekend with a second entry, some have a 4th if they do the 1 hour enduro. I don't recall the ratio of first entries to second entries. Interesting to find out for each club and I wonder if it is a reflection of their race scheduling.

As our numbers of novice drivers decline as the season wears on we have with the License Directors discretion included novices in the regular race groups on double race weekends, but that is a Race Chairmen/License Director call dependent on numbers and experience of the Novices.

I was not able to attend the last ICSCC Board meeting but the summary that I have received indicates there are lots changes being considered to entice Lucky Dog drivers into the fold. Waiver of physical, $25 enduro license based on License director discretion, etc. Our January ICSCC meeting should be very interesting.

Vince Vavrosky

Active member
I guess what I'm seeing here is that people are not interested in doubling the track time they get for paying only $50-$75 more vs the current rate of $150-$190 pending on the club hosting the event. And it looks like this would not get more people to travel to an away race knowing that they could get a better value for their racing dollar. So I guess it does not matter what the cost is for an extra run group?

We averaged 12.6 second entries per race last year here in Portland. My question was basically, would that number improve if the cost went down? And by the looks of it, NO.


Great SCOTT!
The way I understood the premise of the question was "Would a reduction in cost for a 2nd entry be enough to convince me to attend an away-race I would otherwise not attend." To that, the answer is 'No', because the detractors from committing to an away race are >$75. The cost of travel, hotel, time away from work/family, or even if one finds the track unfavorable - are all much greater than saving $50-$75.

The 2nd thing to consider, (*assumption) is a lot folks in the Portland/Seattle area don't consider Portland/Seattle as "away races". For me, going to Shelton is the same commitment as going to Portland, so I don't consider PIR an 'away race'.

If we change the question to be: "If the 2nd entry was only $50-75, would you double enter (or purchase a 2nd entry) more often when you otherwise may not?" To that I can definitively say, Yes, yes I would. In fact if the 2nd entry was that cheap, I'd probably just double enter as a default.


New member
Might be a an idea to look at the number of double entries you have now. We had the same question at the kart club and after looking into the numbers we noticed a low number of double entries. We lowered the rate for a second or third class significantly (only $25) and we got more double entries, reaching our goal of more entries in classes. Because we got more double entries revenue actually went up a bit.


New member
I would be more likely to enter a second group if the cost was half, but not necessarily to race. If I can't make the practice day, then having a 2nd group to play with setup changes is attractive. Paying $75 for a couple of extra sessions is likely to seem worthwhile, especially if I'm struggling with dialing the car in (I always struggle with dialing the driver in)
Martin Berryman
PRO3 #150


IMHO, the financial and logistics overhead of attending a race weekend far exceed the incremental price reduction proposed in the original question. I believe the cost of the second entry is a red-herring. The amount of competitive track time is the underlying issue. SOVREN has this figured out, by running multiple shorter races during a weekend, and only relying on a single qualifier for setting the grid for the first race. Finishing position determines the starting position of the next race.

The mini-enduro series is an attractive mitigation strategy to increase competitive track time on a race weekend. Indeed, IRDC has been running non-points races on Saturdays - these need to become points races. If this requires rule changes, so be it.

Be careful about accommodating the Lucky Dawg/Lemons crowd. They are dating up - we shouldn't be dating down (too much). Those crap-can series are all in flux right now, as they struggle with the natural conflict between cost/attractiveness, and vehicle prep. The rules in those series do not have the maturity to shape a relatively fair playing field of faster and safe race-cars and drivers. Sanctioning bodies like ICSCC have spent *decades* shaping a rule-set and organization, learning from mistakes and refining the product. For more serious and competitive-minded crap-can racers, entering an organization like ICSCC is a natural graduation ceremony. Recruit, for sure, but remember who has the better product. BTW, this is coming from someone who has driven in multiple crap-can races, and who has built a car for one of those series.



Well-known member
Regarding the Enduro License for Lucky Dog racers, I'm all for it. We need more racers in the NWMECS 1 hour Enduros, and Conference will likely see some of them deciding to upgrade to full Conference licenses to go sprint racing once they've experienced our events while waiting for the NWMECS race to start late in the afternoon.
The Fall Cascade 8 hour Enduro is on the ropes, having some LDRL racers in that event may save it from extinction.

If you're worried that the cars are unsafe, the latest LDRL car safety rules are more stringent than our rules. They now require a dash bar for the roll cage, a full fire system (not just a fire extinguisher), and all drivers must wear a Hans type neck restraint.

As for the driver's, I'm confidant the License Director can make good judgments on who should be granted an Enduro license.

The biggest worry I have about them is the issue of our fastest cars in the enduros are a LOT faster than the LDRL drivers/cars are used to dealing with. Our fastest cars close the gap and are overtaking our slower NWMECS cars much more quickly than in LDRL races. All the NWMECS/LDRL Enduro drivers will need to be on their toes about this.