Feedback on Seattle Rain Rules

Not to put words in Scott's mouth, but he did say something to that effect, although I think he was speaking more from a position of "the way the insurance world is today for race tracks," rather than anything to do with Conference's insurance position specifically.

Yes Ken, Scott said it at the EBoard meeting two years ago, and he was very serious about it.

And I believe it is the same policy for all the tracks.

Bearing in mind all the tracks have some form of "oh crap" factor, whether it be the point at Trn 12 at PIR, the so-called concrete canyon Trn 6 - 7 at Mission, the bump at Trn 1 Spokane, and water challenges at PR. The drivers know these areas very well and have done a super job of keeping it clean and safe.

But, I remeber the moans and groans at Seattle when they were asked about closing the passing on the front straight.
I also remember the drivers saying "Excellant decision Mr. Steward" at the end of the day as all went home safe and intact.

The decision will be made in keeping with safety for everyone.
I'm sure not going to complain about or doubt that decision.

I too have to have called too damned many ALERTS at Trn 10.... 4 in one day with 2 of them seperated by 45 seconds. (It's taking me longer now to recover from the adrenaline surge one gets.)

But what the hey.....it's not going to rain right?????

Displaying any flag at T10 in the rain is pointless Rich, cause you can't see it. All that you can see in heavy rain is a washout, the wall on drivers right in the kink is not visible. The 'one lane' is a car width wide, and if you get off on either side of that it is real touchy.
We can run up to the yellow this side of the kink, and then open it up again after S/F. It takes away any real passing oopportunity unless you can get by entering T2, but passing thru there in heavy rain is what has caused most of these recent accidents anyway. In the rain it is pretty much a one laner whether the yellow is there or not.
I have had 3 cars spin in front of me there over the last 5 years, and I couldn't see them until I was almost on top of them.
But as my wife said, don't worry about it...

For Wes; Back when I was doing the race chair thing I asked Rockstad to paint something like every forth barrier a contrasting color so that the barrier is more visable in the rain especially in big rain and especially for open wheel. Surprisingly he did it forthwith after my request. I see the barrier is all white again. It seems a make mention to the track ownership is appropriate again.

As for the water in the kink I could support some kind of special flag for #10 that would close that corner to passing so that all passing would have to be accomplished before #10 or after. No two wide through the corner. Something like the old chicane is closed at Portland flag thing. Or mabe the group is notified at pre-grid that the entire session will have a closed #10 to avoid a flag not seen in inclement weather. Or cone it off to single file through the corner as we used to do in old #9 when when it rained on the VHT drag compound. I don't support closing the entire straight. It's Seattle. It rains. We have a reputation to uphold. The drivers, that being us, are smart enough to learn a new temporary system.

Ron had a yellow flag that he posted in one of the Pit In cones, or on the wall drivers' right (previous to the T10 station) to signify the section was closed to passing. I don't remember S/F going yellow though, just the kinky section around Pit In to T10. That would leave the T9-Pit-In section open for the dice. It also left T10 to appropriately flag whatever reality set in.

But that was then...

Gee, I wonder who's working T10 next race?

If its pouring there is passing going down to three A, between 3B and 4 if you dont lose it in the north fork Kent river, have restraint and glide across it, between 6 and 7 going up the hill, beware of east fork of Kent river crossing track just before the top and of course going into and out of 8 is a free for all for all you drifters cause theres no asphalt there, just polished stones embeded in the ground. DO NOT make the mistake of racing someone hard into 9, theres a wall out there with your name on it if you do. There, thats a positive spin on "It always rains in Seattle", were not all doom and gloom. Really, some of my best in car is from the last seattle race in 07, started 7th and only saw an orange deck lid and tailamps for 3/4 of a lap, complete whiteout, when I show it to friends they say im crazy for doing that, you can see the tach and count gears, we were moving along at a fast pace not knowing what was in front of us. thank god no one was sideways in the track, it would have been ugly. around lap 3 jeff clark came into view and I knew I had passed all but one EIP car so I fell in behind him knowing he knew the track in a deluge better than most and used his tire tracks to keep from hydroplaning for the rest of the race. good luck to all and be safe.

Current 10-day forecast out to Friday, 9/25: Mostly Sunny. High 59F and low 49F. Winds NE at 7 mph. 0% chance of precip.

Yeahh baby, my wife was right! Damn I hate it when that happens...

Mark de Regt's comments are well written, and I agree completely. And while I won't be at the Seattle race, I do care about those who will be there when it rains. I too have many years and miles at PR. The front straight kink in the wet, especially for us formula car drivers, is a choke point, a blind, optionless, dangerous section of track. My last rain race there ended with me just pulling off at half-distance, having come to the conclusion that this is a "hobby" and not worth dying while participating. I pulled off to discover that my buddy and mulit-year CF champion Ken Canon was smarter - he'd stopped two laps earlier. Puddles and rain are part of wet racing, but high speed, a single line, no runoff area, and the funnel-like effect of both sides being concrete barriers are, for me, an unmanageble risk. The hanging mist from the combination of open wheels and that section of water-retaining pavement creates a possibility of losing my life blindly plowing into a competitor who's already crashed there, with neither of us knowing why the movie suddenly ended. My PIR accident 5 years ago was close enough to that outcome, and I did nothing wrong - choosing to expose myself to a similar outcome at this kink is, for me, an avoidable risk - by not driving there in the rain. I think the standing yellow is a barely acceptable solution for closed wheel cars, and speaking only for me, a solution that falls unacceptably short for open wheel cars. I see no real solution except a track reconfiguration, which is of course why we have this kink in the first place - to resolve the dangerous situation of entering the front straight on the drag strip launch area. It appears we've traded one barely managable risk for different nearly unmanagable one. This view is not meant to criticize the hard work done by the volunteers and track management to come up with a solution to the drag strip issue - I would think it is impossible to anticipate the all the consequences of what was to improve safety and they are not to be faulted for their efforts to do so.

I've heard Scott Adair speak to the risk of ICSCC still being insurable. Not addressing avoidable risks could be viewed by insurers as irresponsible. And while that pales to the risk of serious injury or death, they are related issues. Scott may be one to better judge if a standing yellow means we are responsible in the eyes of our insurers, but for my personal safety it si just not enough.

Ask me how I really feel...

Bob

My nephew had a nickname for the Weatherman ...

He called him the "Neverman"!

Then again, Wes, your wife is Canadian, isn't she? So yeah, she's undoubtedly right ...

And Bob, well-written cross-post with mine! I've been meaning to chastise you for missing Seattle again ... what's up with that? My only chance to see you and the rest of the Spreen clan, and you've missed both PR races!!! Makes me sad! (Plus I just love watching you and your son race.)

Having worked for insurance defence lawyers for many years (please don't throw rocks at me), and now working within the judiciary itself (please don't shoot me!), I agree ... now that the issue has been raised for all the world to see, I think perhaps Scott should weigh in on this. And perhaps a concerted effort could be put into arriving at a solution rather than a bandaid?

All that said, it's funny, I feel like an outraged parent coming to the defence of its wayward child ... I LOVE Seattle, it's my favourite track bar none (well, maybe Laguna might squeak ahead), so to hear people say "I'll never race there" kind of breaks my heart.

We lost 5 cars that I know of on the day in 07 I mentioned, all but one driver was ok thankfully. I have raced Laguna in the rain as well as T-Hill, no issues to speak except dont get off in t-1 or t-8 at t-hill.

I looked at the arial map of PR, pit out and pregrid could be changed fairly easily to either not transition onto the dragstrip at all or smooth it out and widen the existing kink, as it is im just hitting 5th at S/F, it would be nice to not have the car in transition thru t-1. Anyone gone from t-1 to t-2 sideways yet?

So why is that dirt median between T9 and Pit-In not yet graded, and paved to create a wider output through the funnel and closer to straight down the straight? It has been quite a few years with this same configuration, the price is not going down, the Karting track is pretty much finished...

Much like the weather, we can talk about it for an ever. So what can really be done about it, but carry an umbrella?

Hmmm... Like maybe an insurance umbrella?

If you would like to be reminded of the view in 2007, you can see in car video (from my open wheel FV) here: http://www.tcrmotorsports.com/tcrmotorsports/multimedia.php

It is the 3rd video down.

Left a few $ in the Kink

I have bent up two open wheel cars in the kink both times were terrifying first heading towards and hitting the wall at high speed second sitting backwards in the front straight watching the rest of group 3 coming at me. The problem both times in my case was that I wasnt leading in other words I wanted to pass. From my experience turn two is the best option in the rain because most people take a very inside line almost in every corner and kick up alot of spray. But in turn two you can see plus it is so wide and long a person can get a pass done from the outside line. But in order to be in position to pull this off you must follow the person through the kink blind and at the same or more pace (usually flat in a CF of FM).
So long story short if it is raining an not just a little misty Im heading to the steak house early on Sunday.

By the way, note in the last 90 seconds of the video what happens. That is the hard thing about the no passing zone.

Randy Blaylock said:

I remember a 4 hour enduro at PR, where it was raining pretty good for the first 2-1/2 hours, and there were no passing restrictions in place, and few if maybe no incidents related to the puddles.

Click to expand...

I say this with sincere respect for your experience and thoughtfulness Randy, and with regard for the high level of competence among Conference drivers, but a wise man once said "it's better to be lucky than good". Perhaps the same guy said "don't mistake luck for high skill". That one can take a big risk (badly bent metal or worse) and get away unscathed most of the time doesn't make it any less risky. I support a standing yellow T9 to S/F if we have puddling.

Geez, Leave me out of this. This isn't an insurance matter. At least spell it right.
It is up to ICSCC to determine if the track is safe to race. If the conditions change during a weekend, then it is the Stewards call to continue, stop, or continue with restrictions. Some will recall that Rick D had to cancel Saturday morning sessions due to fog.

The Seattle track is what it is, and we have a race scheduled there. If it snows, does that mean the track is unsafe, or the conditions are unsafe? If it rains lightly, I doubt the track will be considered dangerous, and a yellow in 9 won't be necessary. If it absolutely pours, then the stewards have to do what they feel is safe.

Personally, I'd prefer no yellow. I watched the situation that Olsen outlined, where a super cautious driver nearly changed the outcome of a race, and I watched several other circumstances where traffic approaching the yellow changed the outcome. But, like any yellow, they happen. If the stewards are left with the decision to modify conditions or stop racing, then I'd vote for modifying.

I guess it's good to have the discussion about what constitutes unnecessary risk, and that maybe my perspective is at a different place on the bell curve.

Gonna be a moot point anyway, or not, and watch, I'll be the one eating the wall...

Good vid Stephen. That looked easier than it probably was.

I'm kinda wantin' it to rain now (in fact it is right now). Because I'm wondering just what a yellow flag at T9, T10, etc is really supposed to mean in this circumstance.

Where, and/or what exactly is the incident, and if it can be identied, then why shouldn't you pass afterward? Is it the surface condition that may be considered the incident? If so, then would the caution (no-pass) zone last until the next flag station "not displaying" a yellow flag?

What's that rule again?