Feedback on Seattle Rain Rules

mikeblaszczak

mikeblaszczak

Well-known member
The last race in Seattle is coming up, and traditional it rains hard for that date.

Maybe we'll have 75 degrees and a light breeze, but maybe it will rain again. If it does, what are the opinions about shutting down passing on the front straight?

Just to be clear, this isn't a vote -- the other stewards and I will make the decision -- but we did want to hear input on the matter.
 
Do whatever you guys think is "safe".
There have been some nasty rain races up there in recent years with way too many wrecks.
 
mikeblaszczak said:
The last race in Seattle is coming up, and traditional it rains hard for that date.

Maybe we'll have 75 degrees and a light breeze, but maybe it will rain again. If it does, what are the opinions about shutting down passing on the front straight?

Just to be clear, this isn't a vote -- the other stewards and I will make the decision -- but we did want to hear input on the matter.
Click to expand...

Ditto I trust you and your stewards judgement
 
I remember a 4 hour enduro at PR, where it was raining pretty good for the first 2-1/2 hours, and there were no passing restrictions in place, and few if maybe no incidents related to the puddles.

On the other hand, I was somewhat surprised that there wasn't a FCC yesterday in the Group 1 race at PIR for the oil slick from T4 to T6, to at least put down some oil dry. It was manageable if a person was very careful, but an argument could be made that it was an unnecessary risk that isn't normally present, kind of like puddles at T10 at PR. I'm not complaining now, just drawing what seem to me to be curious parallels.

The racer in me says the weather conditions are as much a part of the race as anything else, and nobody is twisting my arm to keep running if I find the conditions are too treacherous for my taste, or if I chose the wrong tires, or whatever.

And most importantly, how can we possibly be morally justified and intellectually honest in parotting the nonsensical claim to a position further up the food chain from them good ol' boys in NASCAR that don't run in the rain, if we don't either? Oh darn, Montreal kind if kills that whole argument anyway now don't it? Sheet howdy. Pass me another Bud, would ya Jim Bob...
 
I will not be racing at this race, so take my opinion with that in mind, but I did not like when we had the no passing rule in effect a couple years for this event. Especially since it didn't clear until S/F. I think everyone is responsible enough to drive in the manner they feel is safe, and those that are not, we know who they are, :) and stay away from them!

Just my opinion. Again, I will be out of town and won't be racing anyway.
 
I thought the FCY there last time it rained hard in Sept was prudent. It's the standing water, and then the complete lack of visibility that is the problem. Without the barriers an errant car might just slide off track, out of harms way. In that area they ping pong back into oncoming traffic, a recipe for a multi-car pileup.

The FCY was proposed and executed last time because 3 or 4 cars were torn up pretty bad in the morning sessions. One PRO3 car was a write off I remember.

People take a different mind set out on track for a 30 minute sprint race relative to an enduro.
 
The no-passing zone has its own potential for mis-haps as well. I recall that a train of us Pro3 cars came out of T8 lining up for the no-pass zone, not really two-wide, but also not in a single file line either. We rounded T9 and another car from another class (a single-car class, mind you) was v-e-r-y slowly peddling his way through the slop. As it was a no-pass zone, we were left with the split second decision as to what to do, and of course no one could communicate with each other as to intentions.

After the lead car made the decision to slow his momentum rather than hit the binders completely and wait for the rear impact, the slow mover gave a point-by to the group and off we went. It was a harrowing couple of seconds complicated by the no-pass zone. And even after the group passed, there was the inevitable question of whether that was legal and would all of us be penalized for it? The slow moving car eventually took the hot pit lane and became a non-issue.

My point? We're faced with so many different challenges at each race that I would like to believe us racer types could handle them with the due care and attention deserving of those challenges. E.g: The Great Snow-duro of '09.

Leave the passing decision up to each racer. Or is that being too Darwinian about this?

As of this writing, I see the ten-day forecast is calling for 80d and sunny on the Wednesday preceding the event. This may be a moot conversation.
 
And how does 80 and sunny on Wednesday compute to a dry week-end Olsen? :) Considering that the wwather changes here faster than Steve Poole, or Shannon (yummy) can keep up, Sunday could be a frigging tornado for all we know.
I sure hope not cause being the Asst. race chair makes me worry that I might get wet IF I have to get out of my truck at anytime during the week-end!
We did run without the yellow at the kink for a few years, and lost a bunch of cars in the process. I remember sitting on the front straight under the red flag watching them extricate Sean from his car, and that was scary. I believe it's more driver motivated than anything, but drivers who lose it often collect those coming up behind, who of course can't see until it's too late. The enduro Randy referred to was a real mess, but as I recall we all made it thru each lap okay, and there were at least 30 of us I think. Luck perhaps?
All it takes however is one inopportune pass or a driver forced off line to cause an accident, and possible injuries. Is it worth it?
Oh wait, my wife just told me it will be fine this week-end, so don't worry about it...
 
There will be Pros and cons all day long and they are all valid points... Having said that and all kidding aside (yes Mike this is me) I am sure, that the moment you need to make that call it will be done with everyones saftey in mind. I will back you 100%...

KVD
 
I was working T10 the weekend Ron Muro decided to make the "No Passing" section from T9 to S/F.

Standing water was the true and most dangerous issue. Depending on how hard/long it rained, the Left side would go from puddle to pond, and race tires would then become the flat rocks skipping across them. If they are skipping in the right direction when they get traction again, all is well, but if not...

Let me tell you about how exciting it is to make an "Alert! Wrecker Now!" call just before the car(s) actually hit anything.

It's a good rule to keep in your back pocket. 50-how many cars in a group?

But it ain't gonna rain no how anyways, cuz I heered Wes say so.
 
I'd like to post a few random, but not unrelated, observations.

1. I've driven literally thousands of laps at Pacific Raceways, between track days and racing. Those days include many wet days, and a few soaking days.

2. Even in dry weather, the kink in the front straight is a dangerous place, as all too many racers feel that it's a good opportunity to pick off competing drivers, rather than to give proper racing room.

3. In very wet weather, the kink is a very, very dangerous place, with, at most one "lane" which is vaguely safe when there's standing water. There is no safe place to pass there when there's standing water.

4. I finished my novice races a couple of years ago at PR. Serious rain was forecast for Sunday of that weekend, so I declined to do my first "real" race. Instead, I worked at a turn station. During the Group 2 race, staged in heavy rain, two Spec Miatas were largely, or totally, destroyed (both, I believe, in the kink). I decided, then and there, that I'm in this for fun, and won't be racing in heavy rain.

Thus, I don't really have "skin" in the question of whether there should be a standing yellow between turns 9 and 1 when there's standing water there. But I have absolutely no doubt that there should be.
 
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I love my Subaru

T1 in the rain is the only part of PR that gives me even a bit of jeebies. BUT then again... I've never seen the standing water that people have talked about.

Why not just wait for the conditions... if the track conditions are really that bad and something needs to be done throw the yellow and debris flags at T9. Everyone knows the weather around here.... sunny one minute, snow the next, tsunami like rains for a few more minutes, then back to sun. My point is to stay flexible.
 
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clintonracing said:
I love my Subaru
... I've never seen the standing water that people have talked about....
Click to expand...

Yes, I was flagging T-9 on the weekend when the decision was 1st made to go no-passing due to water in the kink. That decision came after 3 cars were in to the wall through there in the early sessions.

When rain is heavy and steady, water flows down off the hill side behind the Turn 10 station, along the paddock-hot pit road and out on to the track. After a period of the heavy rain a lake forms on the inner part of the left-jog of the kink. Anyone how hits the lake or is 'forced' into the lake by a passing car is at very high risk of loosing it and hitting one of the walls. Not a pretty sight :(

UP TOO the kink, the front straight under rain conditions isn't 'bad' and it's a shame to loose all of that passing area.

A THOUGHT:
Perhaps, the Turn 10 flagger could display a yellow/surface over by the paddock/pit road wall which would indicate the kink is flooded. If conditions reach that point maybe attach the flags to the Jersey barrier as a 'permanent' warning until conditions improve.
 
I think Mike knows us too well but to make any other decision than to yellow the straight if the lake developes. I wont be there (building the new car) but we are too competitive to restain from going two wide thru the lake for a pass and that will spell disaster that could have been avoided.. Scott Adair said it all, we are one fatality away from losing our insurance, is racing thru a lake the track owners refuse to fix worth losing your car, your life or the club insurance for making a bad call? I wont even go back there if rain is in the forcast unless they fix the track.
 
I have to ask it. If the owners know of a problem on their track during rainy conditions is there negligence involved? If IRDC or ICSCC has presented a formal letter requesting this condition be rectified and they have not taken steps to do so there could be a legal issue with our insurance providing coverage during an event.

I have never been to Seattle and after hearing stories and seeing results (you-tube is great) for the past few years I have no real intent on going there except during the brightest, warmest, sunniest days, and then maybe even putting boat dock bumpers on the car. I know it is the only track in the area and hopefully the owners will have enough interest on improving it to get more business.... but then again??????
 
"Scott Adair said it all, we are one fatality away from losing our insurance"

Really? Scott said that? Is that a new development, or have we been riding on this ragged edge of risk for some time now?

So now, I'm wondering how our assumed risks compare to others.

Is the ICSCC insurance policy written differently for IRDC racing at PR, CSCC racing at PIR, or NWMS at SRP?

The more we can do to minimize risk is good, but at some point there has to be a balance, and if it takes a yellow flag posted at T9, T10, etc. then I guess that's easy stuff.
 
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