Enduro???

SOOOoooooo, doin' the math, as ICSCC does hold 15 race events a year. There's a good comparison. It's just not as compact as an all at once endurance-type race format. Point is, there's bang in sprints and there's boom in endurance. Since this thread is in regard to the long race format the prep and calculations are different as is the driving style and car make-up.

Once upon a time guts was part of the equation. A car ran out of gas, was pulled to a safe location, and the team had to figure a way to supply the current driver with petrol enough to make it back to 'base' (the pits). If the car broke, it was pulled to a safe location, and the driver (unfortunate enough to be in the car after the previous driver wore it out) had to wait for the team to provide parts and encouragement to repair the car where it sat. Otherwise, they would be forced to withdraw and let their lap count be their trophy. THAT was the challenge to the endurance racing teams. That was the 'guts' run after a full 13-15, or more 'sprint' race season. Then some of those teams, successful or not would travel to Westwood for another try on another circuit sometimes only one or two weeks later.

Who's gonna remember some stories about those endurance races, albeit preparing for only a 6-7 hour long race with only about 1-2 hrs of dark depending on the weather?

THAT was called an endurance race. THAT was called a 'team' sport. And THAT is what has changed.

I suppose I'm not being very nice either.

But since it's not my money on the line (just my own, and my safety team's life and limb in response on a 'hot' circuit to said broken, or mis-fueled race car in light or dark, fog or rain) it is merely an observance.

No guts. No glory. With the race being it's own reward. Spend your hard earned $$ where you can have the most fun.

I just needed to say that out loud... once.
 
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Perhaps it should be -- when YOU'RE ready to sharpen YOUR skills, come and drive with us. ;-)

2 things about this, and I say it with all respect.

In general, he level of driving in ChumpCar and Lemons is no where near the level I have witnessed first hand at races like the the Cascade 12 hour and VIR 13 hour.To say this is a little of base (i suspect it was tongue and cheek) and frankly silly. Yes there are some great drivers but they get balanced out by the ones who have little to no car control or race craft. That being said I must commend you as the level of racing in the Chump events I participated in in 2011 have come a long way but still light years behind what I have experienced in sprints and enduros with various other sanctioning bodies.

I (probably like others) enjoy crap-can Enduros but still enjoy spending time behind the wheel of tuned race cars in an endurance format and this is something that your series does not provide for.
 
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I almost ran the 8 hours at the end of last year.
Issues with that were:
-- I'm a tall dude and had to customize my car to fit. What else do I fit into? Pro3 car with adjustable seats spring to mind.
From one tall dude to another, good choice. :p We had 7 drivers in my Pro3 car last Oct. covering about an 8" height range.


-- It wears out the components of the cars, so we're back to whose car? How do you quantify a bad snchro at the end of the event?
Not sure how others do it. What has worked for me is to come up with a per-hour depreciation figure and charge all the drivers (including me) that rate per hour they drive, in addition to all the other costs. I don't bother with the tach needle and the shift knob - just large expensive things (engine, tranny, etc) and significant wear parts (like wheel bearings). Estimate the replacement cost of each item and divide by expected lifetime. Round up as nervousness and uncertainty dictate. :confused:

-- I do sprint racing as a pay as you go. For psychological reasons I don't fully understand there is the cost threshold per event that I find
hard to overcome. I know it's the same cost as 2 or more events, but you're buying in all at once, rather than a month or so apart.
I think it's weird too ...
You should be able to come pretty close on an upfront estimate of the total cost to run the event, including entry fee, worker fund donation, race car transport, fuel, tires, brakes, the aforementioned depreciation, food, and crew expenses (if any). Divide by the number of drivers and there's your cost to run - pretty close anyway. It won't be exact, but you don't always know what it'll cost you to run a sprint event either. A team owner should be able to give you a close estimate up front. My team came in about 10% under estimate last Oct.

-- Loss of control. If it's my car, my sprint event, my gas -- I control it all.
When playing with others and splitting up the tasks (who buys the tires?) it gets into the control issue.
See above on tires, etc. You have to have an agreement, as formal or informal as you're comfortable with, on who is responsible for car damage. Is it the driver at the wheel at the time, or will the team cover damage as a group? There's no right answer, but you have to be comfortable with your answer. If you're comfortable with the arrangements, giving up control is a lot easier.

-- Lastly there is the unknown. Exactly how do you drive in an endurance race? Are the first laps real fast to get position and then you back off
to 95%? Maybe another sprint at the finish? There is little information on the specifics of how you drive a race like this. Maybe if we knew
more we might get more excited
Classic enduro strategy is to drive at a pace that preserves the car for the duration. A brake change probably costs several laps. If you can avoid that stop, it's worth being a second or two a lap slower. It's way less important to make that lap 1 turn 1 pass than it is to bring the car home for the next driver. The last driver can push harder. Often the car owner drives the last stint, so he/she the car he/she is deciding how hard to push is his/her own.

You might think about crewing in an enduro to learn the ropes, or joining the driver roster in someone else's car. It's not for everybody, but you should try it at least once.
 
Sorry, Tim. My apologies --- but --- when someone says that our drivers need more seat time to become better drivers, and we're running 2X-3X more track time than any club out there (a point which Bob Mearns hit on, immediately), the underlying point of the discussion becomes that (perhaps) ChumpCar's drivers are more experienced that some Conference members are giving them credit for. Remember, our membership is comprised of 70% ex- and current-SCCA/NASA/Conference and other org members (incl. NASCAR, IKF, POC/PCA, USAC, and FIA).
 
Again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT IF CONFERENCE IS BETTER THAN CHUMPCAR.

Get the crap off that line of thought would you? If you are so dedicated to CC why are you even posting anything here? I have supported a CC team and have raced in it too. Loved it. But it ain't the same. They are both good.

Don't YOU get it?

I appreciate EVERYONE'S input and ideas. Unless there is something else positive to see here I am done with this.

I just want CSCC's long standing Enduro to continue and will do everything I can to help see that happen.
 
Sorry, Tim. My apologies --- but --- when someone says that our drivers need more seat time to become better drivers, and we're running 2X-3X more track time than any club out there (a point which Bob Mearns hit on, immediately), the underlying point of the discussion becomes that (perhaps) ChumpCar's drivers are more experienced that some Conference members are giving them credit for. Remember, our membership is comprised of 70% ex- and current-SCCA/NASA/Conference and other org members (incl. NASCAR, IKF, POC/PCA, USAC, and FIA).

Good save! I thought I was about to witness a complete diplomacy meltdown.

As for the, "Our drivers have more seat time, thus they are excellent and talented racers", kind of confuses me. Since when did just "seat time" equate to racing aptitude? Practice doesn't make perfect... Perfect practice does. Driving a jalopy as fast as I dare with a blow-up doll duct taped to the roof doesn't necessarily equate to naturally developing a mastery of race-craft. You said it yourself that 70% of Chumps talent pool is coming from people who's talents have previously developed from Club racing. I hope that those 70% are positive influences and motivators to the people who are completely new to participating in motorsports.

Nothing personal, I just wanted to poke holes in the argument. With that being said, this thread isn't about us/them. The success and existence of Chump/Lemon I think is going to help make what some of what we do better. There are things to be learned. I view the non-professional world of auto racing like this... If one wins, we all win. Getting more butts into seats is good for everyone.
 
This thread is like a merry go round in the room of mirrors!

Lets focus on running ICSCCC club enduro(s). Not sprint racing. Not CrapCan.

I have run several NW enduros as both pay driver and a car entrant with pay drivers. Enduros provide a challenge that you cannot get in sprint racing

I did not run either the IRDC or CSCC enduro this year. Reason being both events had massive 33% plus cuts to their run times. This adds approximately 30 plus percent to the seat fee. The cost of an extra 2 or 4 hours is a smaller percentage of the overall run expense. I didn't have renters at this higher price. I also didn't feel like renting at the higher price.

I was asked for my opinions by both Race Chairmans (IRDC and CSCC) as to what I would support. I told them both to maintain the event length or go longer. I'll assume they had input that told them otherwise. The entries to both events sure didn't support shortening the events.

I am also of the opinion the opinion that a NW Endurance Series could be viable. 3-5 races of varying lengths. 6, 8, 12, 20, 24 hours? A points system similar to the existing sprint race formula for class points with a Team Championship and a Drivers Championship. And a bonus system for each class and driver. A bonus to be awarded to each car in class driver based on the quantity of cars they beat in a race. One point per car beat in class. This would give some equalization between the classes for the overall championship. Also, a driver could rent in each class and still be in contention for the overall drivers title.

I could also see a Team Buy-In for the championship before the season towards an awards fund. This would also guarantee entry at tracks like Mission where car count could be limited.

I am convinced that enduro counts would go up dramatically if we ran when the weather is nice. How about a 12 hour in July? How about a 24? I bet we would get a large number of the Thill25 crowd. Especiallly if we figured out some kind of cross over award for the two events by making the previous year Thill25 the lead event.

I like Eric's idea a 1000k event. We could expand this into several events. A 500, 1500, 2000 to go with it.

R
 
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I agree. CC and real endurance racing is at different levels. that has pretty much been proven here. More seat time? hold on...one with a slow car an one with a finely tuned race car with the right racing equipment.. hardly a debate at all. Nice description of what endurance racing is all about in the recent post above. That is what you have to get across to those that are standing about and not sure about the race and how it works. I pitted or helped with both sprint (championship cars) and endurance teams ( championship), frankly the whole endurance game is way better than short prints. pound for pound it is better, but it seems that having just one per season does not keep the interest up to have participants eager to return to each event. Cash awards for finishing? You better think this one over closely, When money gets involved, you will open a new attitude, other things that may be counterproductive. It may be outsiders taking all your cash! You may consider "tow money" This is sometimes a good attraction to fill the field. Circle tracks have done this in years for their open comp and annual main event races to draw a good competitive field. Also take in consideration that endurance races do need some planning and a race every six weeks or so in a series is about perfect. Not to mention endurance races can be run on one day only and back home to mow the lawn and watch NASCAR!
 
Guys, there's one aspect to endurance racing that I've seen little discussion about here that is the sole reason that I don't participate in these longer events: crash damage. If I crash or break my car in some way during a sprint weekend, I will fix it the way I want to, when I am able to. If I need to skip a season to build a new motor, I do. If I'm racing someone else's car, coming up with a satisfactory arrangement for damage is quite tricky for some cars. Now, I used to race a Miata, so I know that motors and transmissions can be had for relatively little money. A BMW or Porsche motor or tranny is a different matter indeed. Not to mention that a friendship may suffer if bad feelings linger about a person's crashed car.

I did drive the 4-hour at PR a few years ago in a rented Miata from TC Motorsports. They had a great limited liability policy that I was comfortable with. The race was lots of fun, though we were beaten by a team with an ENORMOUS fuel cell that allowed them to go with fewer stops. I have been offered rides by friends with competitive cars subsequently but have never been comfortable enough to say yes because of what I was saying about possible crash-damage.

I suppose that race insurance exists for weirdos like me, but I'm sure that it's very expensive!
 
When you leave the house to go "sprint racing" do you make arrangements with your wife and the local mortuary, in case you crash and die? I think not! If you do, you shouldn't be racing. This sport is NOT for you. Now talk about crash damage since you brought it up..I have never had a driver in my car (21 to be exact) ever ever tell me that his or her intention of racing was to crash. Another side note and mentioned before, in most cases it is NOT Sprint speed that wins endurance racing. ATTITUDE of being smart, conservative and good judgement. I mentioned before, I have spent more money in crash repairs in one season of sprints than I have in 5 years of endurance racing and endurance racing hours are 8 to 1. If you are in your car or anyone else s and you are thinking of crash and damage, then you really need not be on the track endangering everyone else and not 100% concentration on racing. Other drivers depend on their safety that you are totally focused.
 
Nobody expects to crash, duh, but you should have SOME kind of plan for dealing with the post-race aftermath ANYTIME you let someone else drive your car, or risk the situation Richard was talking about.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

R&P Motorsports and SCCBC Present

Springs 4-hour Wet Coast Race

Sunday, April 29, 2012

Get the race annoucement here

Official Entries Open: Feb 15, 2012
Entries Close: April 15, 2012
ONLINE REGISTRATION only: www.motorsportreg.com

Only one entry per car, and all drivers will be registered with the car.

There must be a minimum of 20 cars entered by April 1st in order for this race to proceed.

ENTRY FEES:– $550.00 cash/check/Visa/MC price
LATE ENTRY FEE $100.00
Spectators & Crew Members FREE!
In order to be eligible to run this event all drivers must hold one of the following current licenses: ICSCC - ARR or IRR, SCCA National, FIA, ASN, CACC, NASA. SCCA Regional & all other licenses must be reviewed and approved by the SCCBC License Director before entry closure.

- Run your own number. In the event of two numbers being the same, the first team registered will be granted that number.
- Supplemental rules and regulations will be available on the Driver Info page of the SCCBC website
- Entries may be faxed in prior to the late entry deadline and payment made at the track with no late fee.
- Registration and tech will be set up between the hours of 8-11am

All entries will be through www.motorsportreg.com

IMPORTANT NOTICE: Sunday morning 9-11:45 am open practice.
12pm lunch and drivers meeting.
1-5pm race.

Enduro Classes
L1 2500cc and up & 13B Rotary Engines
L2 1650cc – 2499cc & 12A Rotary Engines
L3 1649cc and under
SR Sports Racer class: open only to cars eligible to compete in CACC/ICSCC Sports Racing Classifications
 
Due to a scheduling conflict that just took place the enduro will no longer be held on April 29,2012.

The new date for the Enduro will be held April 1, 2012.
This will be the first race of the 2012 race season, for CACC, and ICSCC. This serves as an excellent opportunity to test and tune you car for the 2012 season.
There must be a minimum of 20 cars entered by March 17, 2012 in order for this race to proceed.
Race registration using MotorsportReg.com, and rules will be set up and posted at the end of the month.
 
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