Enduro???

It's all fun.

But there are very good points here to think about.

1) What is the purpose of ICSCC Clubs having an Enduro?

2) When are they held?

3) What is the cost to enter it (entry fee only)?

4) What will it take to break even for the Clubs (number of entrants)?

I believe that any Enduro's that ICSCC Clubs put on should be for fun, testing, fun, preseason, fun, postseason, fun. I do believe we should not (can not) try to compete against NASA or take on ChumpCar or Lemons.

"I believe that any Enduro's that ICSCC Clbs put on should be for fun, testing, fun, preseason, fun, postseason, fun."

That is precisely the reason that the endurance races came into being. Local celebration of the local race (CASC, SCCA, ICSCC) season's end.

It was never controlled by any particular sanction body, but the independent club that organized it.

Coverage provided by ICSCC insurance was an economic convenience, not a regulated mandate.

If ICSCC, as it is a collective of those sports car clubs, wanted to create a rule set (that has been discussed in the proverbial back room), then sanction those events as an endurance series, then that is a separate approach that might/could be developed. And such a project would indeed be subject to the same rule change, and enforcement as the regulations of the current ICSCC (sprint race) championship points series.
Perspective

I think one of the compelling enjoyments of enduro racing is the extended seat time. A 30 minute sprint race goes by so quickly. I think it might be possible with a bit of schedule tweaking to periodically have a longer points race as a part of the regular championship season. My son entered a NASA event at Infineon in November where he had one 30 minute race and another race which was 50 minutes. (All on Sunday, I might add - 53 car grid). Perhaps by combining a couple of run groups, you might be able to have a 60 minute or so main race. This might wet the appetite for some. I would just hope there would be enduro options in the future other than the Lemons and Chump events which I still state are more "happenings", even though there are some very good drivers participating. I know if I ever brought a Miata to one of those events, I suspect I would immediately be given a 10-20 lap penalty. I look forward to the 8 Hour Cascade Enduro at the end of the year and if that is the only enduro this year, I will do everything within my power to talk it up and recruit other racers to enter. It was my most fun event of 2011.

Bill-

Bill Bonsell said:

I think one of the compelling enjoyments of enduro racing is the extended seat time.

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Not for me it isn't. I have this awful, nagging voice in my head that is always relating every minute on track to a dollar figure. Thus, Enduro's are a most egregious offender to that inner voice.

My enjoyment is the racing! 10 minutes, 30 minutes, 3 hours... Don't care. If I'm not actually competing with anyone, I'm just burning $$$. I also get that feeling during 30 minute sprint races when I'm not closely battling with a competitor; if I'm leading by a good margin I've been tempted to let them catch me just so we can do some racing.

Bill, when I did the 4 hour enduro last spring I regretted it, but I had fun. I feel that the 2 hours I spent in the car and the cost of fielding the car, I spent more $$$ for those 2 hours of seat time than I did on a double entered sprint weekend and the logistics were far more complex and consuming. The cost for the 1 weekend could have paid for 2-3 race weekends and lapping day and to be honest the 4 hour enduro (because of class/car) felt like a $3k lapping day. I learned a valuable lesson for myself that day.. "next time, RENT."


I would like to try some new things this racing season like renting a ride in a chump car or attending the 25 hour at Thunderhill.

@ Colin; Doing the math a 4 hour Enduro cost $750 an hour. Therefore doing the 25 Hour Enduro would be $18750.00. I would imagine the only way to keep any ICSCC related event healthy that number will need to drop. To help do that the entry fees must drop. To do that the entries must increase. Catch 22.

Assuming one runs a limited class, the only expense is the entry (split amongst drivers), fuel (also split amongst drivers) and a set of tires....and of course wear and tear. While I did extensive upgrades to the car in advance of the 8 Hour Cascade Enduro, those were things I needed to do anyway and will hopefully serve me well in 2012. I ran a total of 12 hours in two events in 2011 and had zero issues hence a pretty low cost per hour and we had 3 drivers per event. Does help mitigate the cost, but I had almost as much fun out of the car as in. Certainly there is less actual wheel to wheel in class racing, but the teamwork and logistics involved to ensure success is very compelling. Going back to my earlier comment, perhaps there is indeed a very different mindset between sprint only racers and those who value endurance racing along with sprint racing.

Bill-

looking though the Internet i was able to find nasa E3 teams that were offering seats for the 25, ave them out and then multiply by number of drivers and divide by race hours of 25 i come up with around 560 per hour for a good well sorted team compared to my team at the 25 around 360 an hour of racing not track time which is another 7 hours. the main price difference is i dont pay myself labor to prep the car.

once the entrys come back up youll have the competition in class. like at the 25 where we had 22 cars in class the faster classes have 10-15 per class. @ Colin if you want to plan to show up at the 25 i think ill need another 1 or 2 crew since im planing 2 cars for 2012

the_driver said:

@ Colin if you want to plan to show up at the 25 i think ill need another 1 or 2 crew since im planing 2 cars for 2012

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Do it, Colin! The 25 is a blast and Eric's got a good team.

@ Eric

Driver, Eric. If I go to Thunderhill I want to do it as a driver. I would like to drive your car (if available) but I am not in a position to make that commitment at this current point in time. I'd like to talk to you further about it offline.

Colin, if you are so concerned about the money it takes to race, then you shouldn't be doing it. Dollar for dollar, endurance racing is cheaper than sprints (and way more fun!) sprint racing you have to have "fresh equipment and skill, and hp. (there is no substitute for HP). Endurance racing, you don't use up the equipment as much(life of stuff is longer). Sprint racing is an individual competition and if you don't make your stand in the first 3 minutes or something goes wrong, you are done. Take that into a cost perspective and add it up. You will be surprised at the high cost of track time, and operation and travel. Endurance racing is a TEAM sport and you don't have to have the fastest car, best equipment and the freshest tires to run up front. If something goes wrong, flat, brakes, etc, you are not out of the race by any means! Taking a number and multiplying it times the hours or such to come to a conclusion of the cost is not accurate at all. It gets cheaper by the hour in endurance racing. I found it to be half the cost compared to the same track time as sprints. That is why I only do endurance racing.

One more thing,
a 3k day for endurance racing? It is obvious you have not been taught the art of endurance racing. Don't be so discouraged. Someone just needs to show you the realistic and budget approach of successful endurance racing! The amount I spent to do endurance racing is pretty cheap considering I have a big rig, a crew of 6, a data controller, driver, food and lodging and I don't spend 3k for a 4 hour endurance. With my current car, I have been in 5- 25 hour races. I am certainly not the fastest or best funded car on the track, but through strategy, teamwork, and a good budget (knowing where to spend the money) we have consistently run in the front. Being prepared for the 25 is a 5 month plan for me. When it is over, I usually have enough equipment to run about 30 more hours of endurance racing the next season, (except for fuel and entry). When people say "it's too expensive, it wears the equipment out, it will shoot your eye out," its bull or they have never focused on how the game is played.

Kyle: Bottom line, "I want to win" Me too. Why go out and race a class with 3 to 5 entries? That's not racing ( I agree with you there) but for those that consistently finish in the bottom half every race: Doesn't that get boring? That's not racing, that's just going around the track like TT. Endurance racing is a great place that evens up the field and gives those mediocre drivers and cars a great chance to win. Endurance gives you more variables to win. I have won my fair share of SU sprints but they are not the same as winning an endurance race. I have tore up and used up more equipment in a Season of Sprints than I did in a season of 3 hour races and one 25 hour race! Case and point: 2011 25 hour race: total cost to operate: $16,670.xx finished 4th overall and fourth in class. Broke the gearbox in hour three and ran the rest of the race in 4th gear. Parts left over for next year: $8,125.xx, NET cost of race:$8,545.xx. Out of that 8,545 came food, lodging, which is not directly related to the cost of track time. $920.xx @ 30 persons x 9 meals and snacks. Total track:$7,625.xx. This includes the transport of all the equipment to and from the track. It actually cost me to run the car on the track, 305 per hour! It cost me $950.00 per half hour to run the car in a sprint race. I hope this helps you understand why I only run endurance races because it is way more fun and cheaper!

RM

First let me preface by saying... I've been at 4 enduros and only fielded a car once and that time we have very little competition and did ZERO close racing and thus some of my opinions (which they all are) have been skewed a bit. All opinions are subject to change.

GTM Racer said:

Colin, if you are so concerned about the money it takes to race, then you shouldn't be doing it.

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Can't agree with this statement. It's like saying, if you're so concerned about paying rent maybe you should live under a bridge. Racing is my addiction, and thus my addiction must be managed otherwise everything else suffers including my ability to indulge said addiction.

GTM Racer said:

Dollar for dollar, endurance racing is cheaper than sprints (and way more fun!)

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That is your opinion.

GTM Racer said:

Endurance racing, you don't use up the equipment as much(life of stuff is longer).[

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Definitely disagree with. 1 4hour enduro puts the same wear/tear on my car as being doubled entered on a triple race weekend in Spokane. I had more fun at Spokane, by a drastic margin.

GTM Racer said:

Sprint racing is an individual competition and if you don't make your stand in the first 3 minutes or something goes wrong, you are done.

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You say that like it's a bad thing.

GTM Racer said:

It gets cheaper by the hour in endurance racing.

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But it doesn't get cheaper by the weekend, and that was my WHOLE point. Different strokes. I find my enjoyment running 10/10ths, fighting for every inch of the track. I like wrestling alligators for lack of a better analogy.

Don't be deterred by my opinion, this is only how I approach it all and fell about it now. I am subject to change and in reality have participated as crew in 4 enduros and only fielded a car once.

I respect your opinion, however, I was stating facts as I see them in written words and my checkbook. At the beginning of the season, I budget for the yer with no compromises. I know how much I am going to spend and add a little extra for crashes and other possible items. I make sure it does not interfere with my other lifestyle obligations. You said "10/10ths. if that is the way you race then endurance racing is not your cup of tea. You are right: sprints require 10/10ths. for me and others, that means running 7500 RPM.. endurance: I run 6200 equals longer engine life, gearbox, and tires and more races. (management). Sprint racing is an individual sport. When you leave the pit area, you have one chance out there. There is no one else going to help you. How can it not be a solo sport? It is not a bad thing for those that think this is what one likes. YES it is cheaper by the weekend. Here is how: For me running at Thunderhill, 3 hour enduro(= 6 sprint races) in track time. It cost me with travel, lodging, meals, entry, fuel, maintenance, $2400.00. track time is equivalent to 3 weekends of 2 sprint races. entry is 100 more, travel is 620. more, lodging is 400 more, wear and tear on the rig is 2x more, race fuel is 100 more(less fuel mileage), 4 more tires (1,500.00 more). If you want you could run 10/10ths in an enduro but it is just not cost effective. I just can't see how running 6 sprints is cheaper than running an enduro for the same amount of track time. And I like learning about how people see things differently, don't take it the wrong way, this is good for the race community as one sees these opinions and can embrace good ideas that make series better and more fun. What we have here is two persons that like racing and have two approaches of it. This conversation keeps us fresh with productive ideas!

cheers,
Richard

There be Enduros and there be Sprint races, as also there be NASCAR and Dirt Trackers and Rally's and Drag races and bicycles.

They are all good and they attract people as they desire. There is not one better than the other, they just are all good.

But; How can we keep a very long standing event going, fun, and not drain the Clubs pocketbook, and at the same time offer the opportunities to other Clubs (ICSCC Clubs that is) to hold an Enduro?

Kyle, here's a better question. Why would a club, ICSCC or otherwise, want to promote and operate an endurance race?

I mean, it can't be simply to please a dozen, or so teams. Although profit shouldn't be the motivation, at least breaking even should. So what is the motivation now? Tradition? The fact that CSCC has held so many? It's certainly not a mandate in the bylaws to put up the $$ to provide the facility and safety functions with the hopes that there will be enough interest to provide some recompense with entries.

I have watched as Cascade attempts to cater to nearly every whim of their still existing customers. Tow every broken toy in because after 30 years it became a safety issue, so now they all get 'overs' like the any slot car track, they've allowed semi-professional fueling equipment for certain classes, switch around the classings, and class structures, gone from 6hr to 8hr, to 12hr, to 10hr, and back around again. Still no consistency of success since... well, WHEN?

Please don't misunderstand me. I have enjoyed being on turns or providing Safety operations for over two decades. The team effort on both sides of the fence, the BBQs/food fests, the excitement of nocturnal race operations... everybody together for the endeavor. If I didn't get a kick out if it, I would have vacated long, long ago. But, I've also watch it change. The texture, and make up is different than it was. And these things, well before Chumpcar ever came into existence.

It truly is time that the membership needs to answer the questions of viability, motivation, and continuation of their endurance races. Not just the Board, but the general members. The people that are suppose to be involved in, and operating the event.

Of course there are drivers out there that want to participate. There always have been and there probably always will be. But without serious entry numbers, as would any 'commercial' organization, it must be consider, and the question needs to be asked. What's the point? When did the horse die?

All the more reason, as I stated earlier, to poll the drivers and ask the tough questions to determine the future of Endurance racing within ICSCC. Surely there are those much smarter than me who could develope a series of questions. It would not cost that much to initiate such a poll. Perhaps a questionaire could be developed and mailed out with 2012 licenses...even a prepaid return envelope.

Bill-

Great Questions here. I would like to throw out a few things to think about.. The average age of USAC sprint car fans at the track: 68. The average age of an apprentice carpenter: 34 ave journey: 55. average age of an elevator mechanic: 41 av journey: 62. Average age of a sheet metal apprentice: 36 av journey: 56. When a club or organization forgets its fan base or structure of what makes it solvent, this is what happens. Recruitment falls away to the waist-side because everyone was basking in the sun and not preparing for that rainy day. NOW BACK TO RACING. While the numbers decline, there is no recruitment plan in place. Taking a pole may be a good idea but you are poling the same members that already exist. They would probably only change places but not increase the member base. What is the average age of the membership? Why? It takes a lot of hard work to introduce to young people about cars and racing and what it has to offer (at any level) You are competing against technology and the lack of physical motivation). Unfortunately, road racing is not a spectator sport. The pole that should give back vital information is the current enrollment and how many years they have been involved with racing. This should give you some answers and a direction. Adding more classes or micro divisions only dilutes what little membership you have that is competing. You would need to take a look at your status: are you a club, are you a membership, are you a business, are you a corporation? A board of directors should be able to run through all this in a moment and establish where you are and where you want to be.(direction). Are the participants members or retail customers? You must decide one or the other. It is OK not to have an enduro race, but what if an enduro series? First off, like I said before, you have to have an educational plan to expose current and future racers to your club or product. ( I hate to say it) Chumpcar is a good example of their successful recruitment while they allow anyone with a car that meets some rules and give a short course of how to drive. They are creating a fan base if you will. I am not a proponent of CC but there are some good business ideas that they prove works. Driving around in a crapcan is not my idea of real racing but more of a social event. Survival is the key. If it isn't paying the bills, then don't do it, focus on what does pay the bills. You have to make some previsions that allow new comers to participate without the costly licensing for certain enduros but they cannot participate in sprints. Get them used to the idea of road racing at its finest. Endurance racing can be done and enjoyed at 7/10ths. I suggested to NASA last year the same I am here. They offered pit crew assistance, seminars, and a discount for new comers. they increased their regular car count by 11 cars and drew one timers of 14 over an increased 8 event series. These ranged from 1 hour to 6. I think their average car count was 28. They used many of my ideas but assigned a different endurance director because word on the street is that i am a trouble maker. I am OK with that because I am passionate about endurance racing and want to make it the best I can wherever I go. Ken and Kyle, I hope I answered some of your Q's. In a prev. post, i offered to help out the best I can, whether to take me up on it or not is up to you guys. Lots of great ideas are coming forth and should be looked at closely.
Richard

and another one for the pot: Make people feel welcome that they are there, meet them in the pits, a few seconds of interest keeps them coming back for more. Assign a club member and make personal phone calls, NOT EMAILS for up coming endurance events, get a car count, assess and call others. to make your car count full. Just thinking out loud.

RM

We have a really good novice program.
What we don't have is a program to move the HPDE guy into racing. We whet their appetite with the school,
but we don't further that relationship.
A way to move the HPDE people up may be by introducing them into racing in a staged fashion.
You could do this based on a points system.
As the HPDE guy (or gal) has a number of HPDE sessions under their belt and collects (experience) allow them
to run against others of similar experience. The ones with higher levels of points wear a colored flag on their car
allowing them to pass others in other sections of the track other than the straights.
With experience also comes a requirement to up the safety requirements of their cars.

As they move up the points ladder you could stage a modified version of a race start.
We already do a race start with the school, but we need to allow them a little more room to run.
At the end of each season we have our members rent the highest HPDE performers race cars at reduced rates and have a short race.
Heck, by this time they are at least equal to many novice drivers. In fact during the HPDE season we introduce many
of the same lessons we give during the novice program.

I know there are many issues with doing this, but we need to figure out how to get their juices flowing
so that not only want to race, but have to race. And I think we do that not by having them jump from HPDE straight into a race car
but by introducing them slowly into the system.

The problem with HPDE's as a stepping stone up here in the Northwest, is that they are never on a race weekend, so participants do not get to experience the "racing environment" which might wet their appetite a bit. We try via the drivers school to identify those who might be interested in stepping up to wheel to wheel racing, but don't really have a program in place to follow up with them. Perhaps those drivers at our school events who express and interest in stepping up, might be assigned a mentor, if you will, who is geographically located, who would be an experience racer (preferably one who has come up through the school and subsequent novice program) who this aspiring racer might be able to turn to for advise and such...even be invited to help crew and assist during race weekends.

Having just got back from a NASA event in November at Infineon, I was impressed wth their HPDE program which has 4 levels from very beginner to experienced drivers (Level 4 where full course passing is allowed). Not sure it is feasible given our number of run groups to incorporate that many HPDE groups within a race weekend, but it would certainly be a bonus to be able to incorporate a top level HPDE run group into our weekends. NASA does schedule their HPDE program into their full race weekends. Albeit, they do have fewer run groups. Want to bring more newbies into the fold? Allow them track access during a full race weekend. And then recruit them into the novice program. I know this discussion of new drivers is not an issue within Pro3 as I understand it, but a lot of us are getting older and the ranks needs to swell in almost all classes.

Bill-