Post season race schedule assessment

westipton said:

Colin your numbers are skewed a bunch!

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I warned you. :tongue:

If we did "Double Single" weekends it wouldn't add extra weekends, just extra racing. The Triple at Spokane proved this point.


I'm not carrying the torch for anything here specifically just having fun with this theoretical exercise.

I understand the thought of having fewer weekends so volunteers don't get burned out, especially as they work other events besides ours, but... most of them do not attend all the Conferences events either. So the question for the volunteers is--how many weekends do you guys feel up to?

BUT
Question: Why do drivers want fewer weekends? Please think about this for a minute

In the time I've been in Conference it seems that only a couple people ever race all the races during a season. The result of that is that 99% of the drivers are choosing between weekends to make up their personal schedule. So if you know you won't run all the races anyway, why do you care if there are more or less of the races you won't attend? If this is about being eligible for championship running, then lets lower the amount of races needed to be in the running. Maybe with the current economics, that's a good idea?
Other than championship eligibility (and volunteers), I don't see any good reason to have fewer weekends. That just limits the racing for those people who would run the higher number of weekends.

Now, that said, I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep pursuing the rest of the ideas for creative and efficient use of our time. It seems that pretty much everyone is a fan of more racing per weekend.

P.S. Regarding my last post--
Someone might say that since 99% of the drivers don't run all the weekends, that's a good indication that we have too many.
Rebuttal: Most of the drivers won't run all the races anyway, due to distance or work/family scheduling conflicts, no matter what you do. My daughter brought this up recently, as she wants to make it do more dog shows next year. I pointed out to her that fewer weekends didn't mean that none of them would conflict with show dates, just that there would be fewer other races to go to if there was a conflict. She's voting for more weekends.

The other thing is that we don't want to consolidate too much. Our groups are limited to a specific number of cars on track, and I believe that that won't support having all the drivers who are eligible for a group showing up for each weekend. More cars mean more competition and interest, but we need to spread the load a little bit.

Current policy is each member club is allotted three championship races. Maximum number of possible weekends is 15. Last year because of a few doubles and one triple race weekend, it was actually 11 weekends.

Hypothetical; Instead, each member club is allotted two race "weekends". The maximum number of weekends would then be 10. Maximum possible races is 30 I suppose, but probably more in the range of 15-20 races.

Thoughts?

Karen, I'm not saying that I'm typical of the workers, but here is a list of the weekends where you'll find me.
All Oregon Region SCCA events.
All ICSCC events at Portland, Spokane, ORP, and Pacific.
Throw in drivers schools at Portland that fall on a Saturday, the Portland Historics and the Portland NASCAR weekend. That is a typical season for me. Throw in an occasional trip to the Runoffs and you have an idea of how busy I am during the season.

robjacobsen said:

Karen, I'm not saying that I'm typical of the workers, but here is a list of the weekends where you'll find me.
All Oregon Region SCCA events.
All ICSCC events at Portland, Spokane, ORP, and Pacific.
Throw in drivers schools at Portland that fall on a Saturday, the Portland Historics and the Portland NASCAR weekend. That is a typical season for me. Throw in an occasional trip to the Runoffs and you have an idea of how busy I am during the season.

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Thank you!

Blaylock said:

Hypothetical; Instead, each member club is allotted two race "weekends". The maximum number of weekends would then be 10. Maximum possible races is 30 I suppose, but probably more in the range of 15-20 races.

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That would theoretically provide the allowance necessary to refrain from back-to-back weekends and if the race weekend was modified we could still get to compete in plenty of races.

This year I had a ball at Spokane with the Qual/Race type of schedule. Have I mentioned how much I love racing at Spokane? My dad and I look forward to it all year long and while I was skeptical on how the triple was going to be pulled off, NWMS exceeded all my expectations.

I know I was just participating in hypothetical exercises earlier but the more I think about it, I find myself being attracted to this, "Same number of weekends but lots more racing" idea.

Karen, thank you for your post ... it’s something I’ve been thinking about, in reviewing the comments in this thread.

Personally? I don’t even come CLOSE to Rob’s level of dedication. Too busy, too old, too tired ... whatever the reason, the fact is, I go to the races in Mission and in Seattle, because they’re close to home (and I love Pacific Raceway) [and IRDC]. I’m down to only doing Conference now – no Sovren or SCCA - and at home will do the CACC races if I can. I also travel to Indy races through the year to volunteer at those as well. I used to travel everywhere ... often to Portland, and occasionally to Spokane ... but those days are gone. I don’t have the energy to leave after work Friday night, drive for five hours (or more), spend my weekend at the track, then drive home on Sunday night and go back to work on Monday morning.

So you’re correct – it doesn’t really matter to me – I’ll still go to as many Conference races as I can ... but only in Mission and Seattle (and maybe once to the new one at the Ridge).

My Canadian worker two cents!

The dedication factor remains the same, Bonnie. I believe that there is a solid cadre of workers that are all making those races that they can, as they can, where we can. And to each owns satisfaction.

My race schedule pretty much matches Grandpa Pettybone's, usually. Save this year I didn't participate in the March Enduro, or first race @ PR, but it's not unusual for some to make each and every event in one capacity or another.

You're welcome, Colin.

And thank you, any, and all those driver participants that have, for many years, helped to subsidize these efforts with their donations either through individuals sponsorships, and contributions to each club's worker fund at these events. It most certainly enables those experienced bodies, while promoting and motivating new ones to come out and enjoy this, our great sport. Even in the rain... Sometimes, especially in the rain.

So important is the maintainance of that symbiosis. Those that work at driving and those that work at keeping them safe at any venue. I believe that it is that relationship which dictates the true solvency of the Conference, too.


We don't want to over-extend either entity physically, nor force the limits of financial capacities to collapse due to undue pressures to achieve. How many races to really prove a champion of any given class?

I might rather have one big <<<Blast>>> weekend for each club, and call it good for the year. Figure out some kind of point structure to support it. Then everybody gets to go to every track because there's only gonna be 5 toes... tows.

I think the point is more racing and less travel, for all of us. Eliminate the 2 qualifying sessions and offer more race sessions. After this year it is evident that the doubles give more seat time and more racing, which is definitely a bigger bang for each hard earned buck we spend.
Randys hypo on 2 races per club is an idea that has been kicked around before, but the objection was naturally that it would take money from the clubs. Time to revisit that idea at the club level and see where it stands now. CSCC had 4 races a year for a very long time, and finaly dropped to 3, which was received positively by most of the drivers, and workers too I'd bet.
I believe that fewer races at each venue will attract more drivers, and with a lot of doubles thrown in, the pot would be sweetened considerably. 14 or 15 races over an 8 or 9 week-end season certainly appeals to those great many of us
who are struggling financially these days. I'd like to win another championship before my racing days are over, but the $$ and time commitment to achieve that just won't allow it to happen presently.

Wes, your comment sparked my interest in that I won't EVER win a championship. It's not really a financial thing, but just that I don't want to spend 15 weekends a year at a race track despite the fact that I love being in a race car. The Spokane Triple was executed brilliantly. Basically the best run event ever and I am a NWMS member but I contributed absolutely bupkis to the event. But it was a bit much for me despite living in... Spokane. So as far as commitment I am for sure on the low end of the scale. But I think there is something to be said about making event appeal to people that are not fanatics, not willing to pay whatever cost (financial or personal) to run for a championship.

G-man

You did plenty. You got the car ready to run and turned clean smooth lap after clean smooth lap. As always it is a pleasure to share the track with you.

To get back on point I do not see much that can be done to the 2012 Schedule to reduce the number of weekends unless we have doubles at PR and PIR (not my clubs, not my call).

Other than that we could try not to schedule back to back weekends......

If I did run the Zoo I would re-write the rules requiring practice/quali/quali/Championship Race to:

"each race weekend must include 4 track sessions per Championship Race Group".

That way each Club could run a schedule that best fits their needs and each racer could choose accordingly. It would also allow some experimentation like sprint races etc.

Novice stuff would remain the same.

Simple



That way each club

colin_koehler said:

I warned you. :tongue:

If we did "Double Single" weekends it wouldn't add extra weekends, just extra racing. The Triple at Spokane proved this point.


I'm not carrying the torch for anything here specifically just having fun with this theoretical exercise.

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Colin,

Suggestion since you are looking at different scenarios…

Take the championship points sheets for the year, put them into a graph and see where it makes sense to do a 2 or 3 race weekend from a profit/lose angle to each club…

Just a thought…

John Rissberger
# 10 Camaro A/S

Something for people to think about:

When we are putting together a schedue for the ICSCC, it takes a lot of trial and error moving, negotiating, shifting, and accomodating for five different clubs to put together something workable over a relatively small number of possible week-ends that fall within the weather limitations of what we call the racing "season". For those of you who haven't been exposed to the process, let me give you a taste.

1) We start with the general idea that week-ends that have the best opportunity to not be negatively impacted by weather fall between April and September. That makes six months of "racing season" which is about 26 week-ends and to be fair, either end of that period still have the potential for some bad weather.

2) We know that by current ICSCC regulation it is possible that each of the five clubs will want to hold three sprint events each (Enduros are a completely separate and non-championship animal) which means that in the worst case there are 15 potential week-ends needed for the season. If that were the case, you can see that there are already not enough week-ends to have each race with an open week-end in between! 15 races + 14 off week-ends in between = 29 weeks. Luckily, some of the outlying clubs have decided that multiple race week-ends are more likely to draw entrants because they can get more races for the same tow miles. This year there were two doubles and a triple resulting in 11 week-ends required. If we spaced those events a uniform two weeks apart it would have resulted in a 21 week schedule - five months out of the six month "season". Not a lot of wiggle room.

3) Each club starts out trying to do the best they can to stick with as many "traditional" dates as they can, which means they attempt to stay somewhat consistant from year to year. If everyone started the scheduling process over from a blank sheet of paper every year it would be even more chaotic than it is currently. Even with everyone doing the best they can, there are other factors that force date changes. At most tracks there is competition between various sanctioning bodies and organizations for the good weather week-end dates that everyone wants. Each of the clubs spends a pretty fair amount of time and effort maintaining good relationships with their local racing venues so we are desireable customers when we contract race dates. ICSCC isn't the only organization that wants these dates - sometimes we get what we get and we shift everyone around to make it work.

4) At some point the clubs have to look at other events and how they might affect the success of their race dates. A great example is the NASCAR K&N Series date at Portland. Sure, it's a summer week-end date that a Conference race can't be held at Portland, but it's much more than that. It's a date that NOBODY would knowingly hold a Conference race on because they have been inviting the Pro3 group as a support race. It seriously affects the success of any Conference date if a large group of ICSCC drivers (and arguably the largest single group is Pro3) is committed to race elsewhere. Same kind of problem with the Historics and SCCA Nationals at Pacific and PIR - some of our invaluable volunteers also support these other clubs. If we schedule against these events, we run the risk of low entries or low volunteer turnouts. The former results in races losing money while the latter may prevent a race from happening at all! Lastly, we all try to look into our crystal ball and guess whether our attendance will be affected by being one week after a triple, a double, a special event, or even a long tow. Yes it is every bit as complicated as it sounds!

Here is my much delayed and belabored point: Current scheduling is extremely difficult and must be done with a very long lead time to have any hope of having it place by the time you want to go racing next year. Right now there are already people hankering for our race dates so they can set up their own personal schedule so they will be able to attend. Any great ideas you have need to be discussed and solidified ASAP ....... FOR THE 2013 SEASON! 2012 is already past the point of major change. If you have great ideas for changes in the ICSCC schedule, don't stop talking or even slow down. Start getting things down on paper, go to your local club meetings, build club support, propose them to the other clubs, build Conference support, then be prepared to sell those ideas to ICSCC membership as a whole. The current system is not a bad one and has served Conference pretty well for a long time. If anyone is convinced that they really need to propose change, then you really need to get out ahead of it. I am not in any way trying to dissuade anyone from a good discussion and info gathering - it's great that people care enough to put some thought into it. If you want it to result in anything, you need to act now just to have a shot at affecting 2013.

John, I agree. It seems though that the issue of break-even is in the clubs hands. Each club has the decision to run up to the allotted potential races.
If they aren't making their expenses, then they have the choice to make of whether to ride it out for a year or two at some loss, or give up a spot on the track schedule and run fewer races.

I would postulate that making the events more interesting would hopefully bring in enough additional entries to make the low-entry weekends profitable.

It might be good for the clubs to look at their numbers throughout the season--It seems that the races early and late in the season would typically have the lower entries (compared to other events at the same track) due to obnoxious weather conditions. So what can we do to make rain races more fun...?
Have prize money for the driver who wins by the largest margin? Entry packets come with an umbrella? Have a drawing for a waterproof car cover?

Three Bear Syndrome; too few races no ones happy but entries are high. Too many races no ones happy and entries are low. Just the right number of races and everyones happy and entries are acceptable. It's magical number. How many weekends between race weekends:2? 3?, certainly not anymore. How many races does each club get? 2? 3? What is that based on: the rule limiting 3 championship events per club?

Assume 2 race weekends each month starting in April and ending last of September there is 12. With 5 clubs that's 15 races. Would figure some clubs would benefit with double or triple race weekends.

A couple of points to ponder here...

Expanding the race count per season is most likely going to drop the car count per race weekend. Can the individual club stay solvent with lower entries?

Trying to do double weekends is difficult for some clubs as we have early cut-off times on Saturday.

And don't forget thru all this that we have ICSCC mandated Novice program to fit in there somewhere.

IRDC already does 3 day weekends for a Single race. We offer an all test n tune on Fridays that requires manpower and other resources. Going to a Double would run us out to a 4 day weekend.

There is no 'One size fits all' solution to this as each club/track has different requirements and limitations.

15 races a year/ 3 per club, seems to be working better than anything else that's been tried. Why screw with what works. It would be up to each individual club to configure it best for their own use and conditions.

My 28 cents (inflation)

john_rissberger said:

Colin,

Suggestion since you are looking at different scenarios…

Take the championship points sheets for the year, put them into a graph and see where it makes sense to do a 2 or 3 race weekend from a profit/lose angle to each club…

Just a thought…

John Rissberger
# 10 Camaro A/S

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Oh jeez! Just saw this.. Seems like a good data mining exercise. I *might* find the time to do this but don't get your hopes up.

Doubles don't equate to 4 days Kerry, and never will. Fewer week-ends with more racing is pretty much a MUST for the future of this organization as a lot of us see it, and suggesting that we stay with ther tried and true just isn't revelant any longer.
BTW, 3 races per club would put 3 at SRP, 3 at ORP and 3 at Mission. You think that's gonna happen?