Open Discussion involving Race starts

I searched Bing image search with "Racing for Dummies" and this was the first picture posted:

nascar500jpg.jpg


Awesome.
 
Hey I never claimed to read it and obey it likes its the bible, I just relayed the info I had on hand in the moment. Or should I say just gave everyone something else to pick apart, disect and really just to keep you guys busy for another day:p

I know, I know..... SHUT UP Tracey !!
 
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Turfer said:
No worries Mark. I appreciate your comments.

Just because I am curious, what speed (MPH) are you aiming for at 5K?


I think the 60+ that been thrown out in couple of posts is much too fast as the grid will never be able to assemble into a tight two by two grid. I'll throw 30-45MPH out as a decent speed. If we make slow approaches to the starters stand, the grids have a greater opportunity to be tight and uniform and for the starter to see much deeper in the field making for a much more even and fairer starts. I will concede that different groups may have different needs due to gearing.

Karen,
Your PR start was terrific. What speed did you take us to the greeen?

For comparisons, here is Colins video for PR http://www.vimeo.com/27137709

R
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I just checked the data log for Karen's Group 5 PR race on July 31st (the one Rick is talking about). It looks like the pace car was setting the pace through turn 8 and 9 at 29mph. Once the pace car pulls off, Karen gradually increased her speed to 38mph and held it there until the green.

I also pulled the Group 5 race from last weekend at PIR. The pace car was going 35mph on the back straight and then slowed to 25mph in turn 10, 22mph in turn 11, and 23mph in turn 12. Once the pace car pulled off, Mark increased his speed and held it constant until the green flag.

I also have video of the race, but even Colin's tutorial for the simple man is too complicated for this simple man. My video is about 33 minutes long and 2.5gig. I cannot get it to load to YouTube unless I break it into sub 500Mb chunks, and I would need to sign up for the premium membership on Vimeo to even post it there.
 
Does anyone have an SCCA GCR that they can check on this topic? It is my understanding that in that organization, the field is required to hold the pace set by the pace car after the pace car pulls off and as a visual reference, the pace car hold its speed constant even in the pit lane. Can anyone confirm this?
 
Mike_Stimson said:
I just checked the data log for Karen's Group 5 PR race on July 31st (the one Rick is talking about). It looks like the pace car was setting the pace through turn 8 and 9 at 29mph. Once the pace car pulls off, Karen gradually increased her speed to 38mph and held it there until the green.

I also pulled the Group 5 race from last weekend at PIR. The pace car was going 35mph on the back straight and then slowed to 25mph in turn 10, 22mph in turn 11, and 23mph in turn 12. Once the pace car pulled off, Mark increased his speed and held it constant until the green flag.

I also have video of the race, but even Colin's tutorial for the simple man is too complicated for this simple man. My video is about 33 minutes long and 2.5gig. I cannot get it to load to YouTube unless I break it into sub 500Mb chunks, and I would need to sign up for the premium membership on Vimeo to even post it there.
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I think Vimeo will allow you 5 GB per week with their basic free plan. At least I am pretty sure that is how my account works. I do not have the premium account nor pay them a dime.....

Bill
 
Bill Bonsell said:
I think Vimeo will allow you 5 GB per week with their basic free plan. At least I am pretty sure that is how my account works. I do not have the premium account nor pay them a dime.....

Bill
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The free account is one video upload per week (500Mb max). 5Gb/week costs $9.95/month or $59.95/yr. Are you sure you are on the free account?

Mike
 
robjacobsen said:
Does anyone have an SCCA GCR that they can check on this topic? It is my understanding that in that organization, the field is required to hold the pace set by the pace car after the pace car pulls off and as a visual reference, the pace car hold its speed constant even in the pit lane. Can anyone confirm this?
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Very interesting reading. In Racing Rules and Proceedures (Chapter 6)

6.5.1.E states:

E. If a pace car is used, it will be positioned at the head of the pack,
with emergency lights flashing. When the field is released, the pace
car may begin at a brisk pace, but will be sufficiently slowed before
it pulls off the track to allow orderly grouping of the field. Drivers
may not pass the pace car until it pulls off the track and the pole
car will maintain the speed of the pace car before it pulled off track
until the green flag.
If the race is not started, another pace lap will be run. Depending
on conditions, the pace car may overtake the field and resume its
function.
The front row drivers must be advised not to pass the pace car and
that the pace car may return to its position for the additional pace
lap if there is no start.
If a pace car is not used, the pole car will serve that function from
its position in the front row, complying with the instructions of the
Chief Steward or his designee.

There is a section on "Oval Track Racing" in Appendix E 5.5.A

A. Initial Race Start
1. A pace car may or may not be used. If no pace car is used,
responsibility of pacing the field will fall to the pole car.
2. The number of pace laps prior to the start of the race will be
announced by the Chief Steward.
3. On the final pace lap prior to start, the pace car, if used, will
turn its lights out and accelerate to leave track.
4. The pole car will bring the field gradually up to speed for
possible start.
5. Cars shall not improve position prior to crossing start/finish
line. (Pulling out of line alongside the car in front of you is
improving your position.)
6. In case of an aborted start, the starter will display a standing
green flag to the field. After the cars have entered turn one,
the course will go yellow and the field will reform on the back
straight for a restart.

It sounds like Oval Track racing is the only style that has the pole setter increasing speed, and Road Racing rules say the Pace Car sets the pace even after it leaves the track.

Are we "doing it wrong"?

Mike
 
colin_koehler said:
Really! What about just clipping off the front of the video with AVIdemux? I even have screen shots!
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I clipped the video down so it starts when the cars went out on the pace lap and ends at the checker (still approx 2.6Gb). I could further cut it into sections so it shows just the start, but then you would miss the approximately 20 minute battle to move from about 6th position (she lost a lot on the start) up to 1st position. I could also lower the resolution, but I already would face the "Wrath of Colin" for not cleaning the windshield before the race ;-) I have not given up on posting video yet, but I just need to figure out how you guys can post up such crisp HD video in such a small file size. Maybe it is time for a new camera.

Mike
 
colin_koehler said:
I've had 2 random people call me out of the blue to tell me that start should have been waived off. So yeah, I'm going to say since we don't have a clear consensus on this subject we are in fact, doing it wrong.
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As a Conference, we have some great starts, and we have some poor starts. I am glad to hear we are talking about the issue, and it does not appear to be a personal attack on any person or individual. It is a joint effort between the workers and racers to get it right. I think one of the worst starts might have been at the last Seattle race. It is a little hard to remember the details, but I saw one start where I think there was a wave off and a second pace lap. On the second pace lap, there was a nice tight grid of about 10 cars going about 35mph followed by a couple stragglers. It did not look that bad and the green was thrown. Then, to my amazement, more cars started appearing out of turn 7. It reminded me of when you hit a bees nest. A big batch comes out and then for a few minutes later, bees come shooting out full speed at random intervals. I have no idea what the other half of the field was doing between turn 3 and 7 (is there a coffee stand down there in the woods?), but by the time the last car took the green and made it to turn 1, the leaders were already coming onto the front straight to lap. It was by far the strangest start I had ever seen. I kept thinking the last car made it to the green when another one would appear.

In any case, talking it out and figuring out how to "do it right" is a good thing.

Mike
 
Mike_Stimson said:
.......the pole car will maintain the speed of the pace car before it pulled off track until the green flag.....Mike
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Been saying that for the last 6 minutes.

Always get a kick working the backside of Pacific. Hear the 'pre-start' ROAR as everybody puts another 3,000 RPM on.. then... then the gigantic ROAR as the green is thrown.

BUT one last time. The Pace Car MUST set a reasonably brisk pace on the last mile of track coming to the line
 
Thanks Mike. About the same speed the Mark was going for. That mid 30's to 40 seems to be a good pace. Any quicker and it becomes increasingly difficult for the descending rows of the grid to queue up and be ready for a green flag. When I have been the pole sitter I have always aimed for a slow start just for that reason. Sometimes it may have been a bit slow for some but with stock gear ratios I have a 15MPH delta between 2nd and 3rd gears and 3rd seemed a bit quick.

Every pole sitter should take the advantage of pacing the field to the green at their most favorable RPM. So after the pace car exits, it is expected that there will be a little acceleration or deceleration to that point. It sounds like th pace cars may be over slowing at the final corners in an effort to collect the field leading to us increasing the pace once it exits. Maybe we could try having the polesitter should anounce to the Pace Car Driver the MPH speed that he/she would like them to be travelling through the final corner.

R
 
Thank you, Mr. Stimson. SCCA's take on the subject needed to be brought out as Rob suggested.

~35mph is the number that I have heard from the likes of John Bradshaw, Jon Brobst, Tim Stanley, Bud Mansur, to name a couple. And these people have ample time in the seat. Bradshaw has been around since, ever. Jon and Delores have been pacing CSCC events for over a decade. These people are approachable too.

But as much as it may not be any assumption of importance to the operation of the race, I'd like to point out that where the procedures for the use of a Pace/Safety car may not be consistent from sanction to sanction, the facts are that a Pace/Safety car are as important a tool to for race operations. Thank you.

After reading the applicable ICSCC regulations, are they sufficient to develop a consistent procedure for the Pace Car (as it were for the release to starter)?

What are Starters' orders? Something that should have been discussed with the Starter at the Pre-race meeting?

I like that both the Oval regs, and FIA's regs use the lights the same way (sort of). "Pace Car is outta here, you boys are on your own." But SCCA suggests that the pace speed remains consistent with the Pace Car even after it's left the track, and until the green flag. Who's right?

Wanna change some rules? There's some options that have come up here, and we haven't even delved into the operational world of ALMS, or GRAND AM procedures for their particular operations.

It's a buffet of regulations out there, but talk to your local pace car drivers and find out what it is that they need to help make it right.
 
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