Open Discussion involving Race starts

After review of the video, I will agree with Colin and Rick. I did accelerate to 5K rpm just as I did in April. The rate in which I achieved it was drastically different. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. If I am fortunate enough to lead you again I will do it different.

I too have been at both ends of Group 5. I respect and appreciate the drivers throughout the field and appologize for the start at Portland.

Mark

Come and find us at the next race, we'll have a cold beer or 2 waiting for you. I appreciate sharing a race track with you Mark and thanks for not taking this thread personally. If anyone in this thread finds themselves starting from pole in the future I think we're all better off.
 
Just because I am curious, what speed (MPH) are you aiming for at 5K?

Rick,
I'm not looking for a speed. I am trying to get into a part of the RPM range that the car will react quickly from. With all 95ft lbs of tourque I need RPM.

Karen and I discussed this at Portland in April as we are in the same boat engine wise. After viewing both starts, the only diference was that I accelerated immediatly to 5K and held it. In April we were very gradual with the increase in RPM.


Mark
 
Would you calculate it for the purpose of the discussion of "How fast should the Pace Car be driven before pulling off or how fast should the pole sitter be travelling"?

Thanks

Rick
 
One pace car driver that I asked used as a rule of thumb is to hold a speed such that you never have to brake for a corner with the field behind you.

Another pace car driver that I've spoken with in the past always set a brisk pace for the first half of the lap, then slowed to let the field bunch up.

I've seen both work, and both fail. Much depends on the back half of the field catching up to the rest. Sometimes they have a hard time catching up if the pace lap is too fast. Other times, I've seen them driving like they have two pace laps to catch up. The bigger the field, the tougher it is to get everyone bunched up. The figure of 60 mph coming through turn 12 at PIR is unlikely to work. Most pace laps that I've witnessed there have been in the 30 - 40 mph range and as slow as 20 mph when the backmarkers have not caught up in a timely fashion. As has been mentioned, everyone has to work together to make a good start and that includes the pace car.
 
Maybe the License Director can emphasize the importance of staying caught up with the field, not only for Race Starts, but also for FCY and restarts. Sounds like something to add to his soapbox maybe?

I talk about this in every afternoon novice drivers meeting. There's a question on the upgrade test about it - I don't recall that anyone has ever got it wrong. We did a false start / wave-off drill at one of the Spokane races in July. This is definitely a topic that the Novices hear about regularly. Or were you thinking that the problem is the senior drivers? :p
 
...... The figure of 60 mph coming through turn 12 at PIR is unlikely to work......

Really?? WOW. Turn 3A at Pacific is 82 times tighter then T-12 at Portland and 3A is a 35 to 50 MPH corner at racing speeds depending on the car. Turns 8, 9 and 10 at Pacific at 50 to 60 MPH is almost idling for most race cars.

Like I said, gather the 'pack' 1st half lap then... set pace.

I just watched the Group 4 start video from the Dornbacher. They were NOT doing 30 MPH... it was actually pretty brisk up till the Pace Car left the track. Then, they SLOWED DOWN?? LOL
 
Sorry Rick, I don't have speed showing on my dash. At Seattle, I just went by feel for letting everyone stay caught up.
Actually, Mike may be able to go back to my data-log and figure it out, but it'll take a couple days until he could get to that.
Remind me to check this weekend? :)
 
Richard, Remember that that last corner is taken 2 by 2. Have to adjust numbers down from actual racing speeds a bit--not to mention, I don't believe the pace lap if supposed to be at racing speeds.... :)

Bob, Can't hurt to remind the senior drivers of things periodically. :)
 
WOW The accordian effect... When the pace car exited at T9. lights out, the poll sitter has to keep that pace set by the pace car . not bring the rpms up and pic up the speed so he is in the rite range . the field was large and the starter will wait till the majority of the field is on the straightaway 2 by 2 and and a late start is likley. Its not easy bringing a big grid like that to the green . I have been in that position more than once or PIR . Just my 2 CDN cents
 
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Rick,
According to the chart supplied by Jeff Remfert. I would be traveling 39MPH at 5000rpm in second gear.

Mark

And you had to speed UP to that pace? That would imply the pace car was doing 25-30MPH, which is pretty crazy-slow for a lap that's supposed to lead to green. I like Richard's suggestion of 30-40 to collect everyone at the beginning of the pace lap, leading to a general increase in speed to about 60 by the time the pace car peels off... for a track like Pacific or Portland. It wouldn't work at Mission, though, and I don't think it would at ORP, either. In Spokane's old configuration it would work, but not for where S/F was last month (assuming that's where they're keeping it).
 
Just one man's opinion:

I think 60mph is too fast in group 5 and definitely in group 2 due to the nature of the cars. However, this subjective viewpoint is why I like the idea of clarifying the rule next year.

I like the idea that whatever speed the pace car is at when it pulls off is the pace or slower... Speeding up after the pace car leaves the track can give cars in the mid and rear pack a false positive.

If anything I've now learned that I need to look at the qualifying results and have a discussion with the pole sitter to find out what rpm/speed they are planning to launch at so that I may plan my starting strategy around their starting strategy.
 
.... I like the idea that whatever speed the pace car is at when it pulls off is the pace or slower...

That is the way it has ALWAYS been in racing. Not a 'surge' after he's gone or a slow down.. MAINTAIN the PACE... that's why it's called the PACE Car!


......If anything I've now learned that I need to look at the qualifying results and have a discussion with the pole sitter to find out what rpm/speed they are planning to launch at....

If the standard practice as above is followed, you should NOT need to do that. If followed, the ENTIRE field of drivers KNOWS what speed the start will be at before the Pace Car leaves the track!


There is NO absolute speed for the Pace Car to set. It's certainly possilbe that it be different for Group 1 versus Group 5 etc. BUT, it should be the same race weekend to race weekend.

P.S.
S/F location can be an issue and should be 'fixed'. That's why the have 2 S/F lines at Mid-Ohio and why the S/F line at Pacific is no longer just after Turn 9.
 
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When was the S/F line just before T9 at Pacific?

But it's true that the relationship between T&S's timing line and S/F line have been very close. Near scandalous at times.

Spokane's current S/F line is probably not ideal as it has a pretty tight hairpin (the whole section looks more like a bobby pin) just about 40-50 yds previous (or meters, if you prefer) to the station. Probably should, and will be re-thought. Personally, I'd move it to drivers' right, and put it just past Pit/Paddock-Out.

The pace speed is only an issue if it can't be maintained by the grid, or the consistency is not maintained at least after all cars have fallen into position.

Question: What is the significance of the lights on the Pace Car during a pace lap (or previous to a re-start)?
 
I just pulled out my trusty Going faster book and it says, " Once the pace car leaves the field, its up the the pole sitter, and he or she can choose whatever starting speed he thinks is to his best advantage. The standard pace for the start of the race should be in whatever speed results from being in second gear at an RPM in the middle of the engine's power band. Some pole starters will choose to try and take advantage of the accordion affect and start full acceleration toward the flag as soon as the pace car clears way, hoping that the field will string out before T1. "
 
"trusty Going faster book"... right. A very credible source for race operations, I'm sure.

But I'm thinking that of a couple that may be a bit more relative to operations, not an individual (the author's) perspective on what might be gotten away with.

Check out section 2.9.8-.17 for some perspective analysis.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/F5642D0FA93CA9BAC12578C300463B01/$FILE/11.06.24_Annexe%20H%20avec%20tableau.pdf

Before any "But that's FIA... We're not FIA..."

Check our our very own PPM

-21.3 PURPOSE - THE AIMS AND OBJECTIVES OF ROD

21.3.1 To standardize throughout ICSCC race marshalling procedures and practices in
accordance with currently recognized FIA standards and set forth in current FIA publications.

Would it be best to ignore that? Or should we be putting this in perspective of why the Pace/Safety Car exists, and how it should operate for consistency, and at least the attempt at a fair start for everyone.
 
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"trusty Going faster book"... right. A very credible source for race operations, I'm sure.

Well, there's asking the question from the "race operations" perspective, I guess, and then asking it from the perspective of someone who's factoring it in as they would anything else that can affect a race result.
 
True enough. I may be having a hard time with the objectivity in the particularly selfish perspective of that handy guide, but I suppose that the start of a championship points race might not need to have anything to do with a sanction's operation.

How about we just turn on a green light and everybody goes? It works for Karts, bikes, off-road, it works for F1. Heck, it could work for any 40 car grid, right?

Pressure to keep a consistent, and moderate pace on the pole position? Naw! If they can't keep up, screw 'em.
 
Pressure to keep a consistent, and moderate pace on the pole position? Naw! If they can't keep up, screw 'em.

Well, to some extent... yeah. So long as the operation of the pace lap is predictable, doing a good job in qualifying SHOULD mean that a fast start doesn't have any disadvantage to anyone IN CLASS. In other words, sure, the first few rows might have an advantage (and when hasn't that been the case, at any speed?), but there's no disadvantage to other cars that aren't in the same class as those leaders that wasn't already caused by poor qualifying by those slower cars.

The one thing we should avoid is a "race to the green," which seems to cause all kinds of problems in the first corner.
 
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