Open Discussion involving Race starts

It is my opinion that the start in G5 last weekend could have been done better and a discussion involving good starts can improve the racing experience for everyone. I also think there is some wording that may need to change in rule E/C 709 after what happened.

Here's what it looked like from my car both forwards and reverse.

Forwards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSk1uyKe3JY

Reverse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hambv6QVx6A

Wording from E/C 709

E/C 709 said:

The pace car or car in the pole position shall set the
pace as directed by the starter. THERE WILL BE A DOUBLE STANDING
YELLOW FLAG SHOWN AROUND THE CIRCUIT FOR THE INITIAL PACE
LAP. The grid must be orderly, in a tight formation and be moving at a
constant and moderate pace prior to receiving the green flag from the starter.

Click to expand...

So which one it is? The car on Pole or the Pace Car?


Then there's E/C 710

E/C 710 said:

False start. A false start occurs when, before the start, a driver moves
forward from his/her prescribed position against orders from the starter. The
driver concerned shall ordinarily be penalized by one lap. His pit and the
scorers shall be immediately notified of the penalty.

Click to expand...

It is clear on my video that several cars around me, including myself are at full throttle including rowing through a gear upon accelerating just to keep up with the field leaving us! That essentially defines false start.

I also don't think this part of 709 was adhered to either.

E/C 709 said:

The grid must be orderly, in a tight formation and be moving at a
constant and moderate pace prior to receiving the green flag from the starter.

Click to expand...

In watching my rear video; Walker, Schwenter and others were smart enough to hold off but I'm not sure why. Either, way I'm glad they did what they did and I got to drive my car back on the trailer!


Discuss....

I believe the wording in 709 with "or" handles both a situation where there's no pace car (and the lead car in the second group of a split or staggered start) and for the field after the pace car pulls off. That being said, that looked to be a mess and maybe shouldn't have gotten a green. Ask anyone in Group 4 about the two non-starts in Seattle a couple weeks ago...

It wasn't the best start I have been involved in. Not the worst either. Pace car was way too slow in 10, 11 and then it was Indy car style FLAT OUT up to the point brake lights lit up and I nearly stoved in the back of Christines MX-5. I am glad Colin didn't hit me as I was two feet in nearly locked up. I think his GoPro wide angle doesn't shows how close it really was. I would have liked to see that start waved off.

My favorite starts are when they are smooth steady state speed until the green drops.

R

i did see video from people near the front of G5 and it looked like they increased speed very rapidly then held speed and then a severe accrodion effect happened i was in the 14th row i could have been full throttle coming out of 12 like most car around me even though the green was not out yet. i was in 3 race starts 1 2 and 5 and 5 was by far the worst

here is from the car Roldan right behind me we almost come to a stop between 11 and 12. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96Li75NsdhI

As the pole sitter I would like to comment.
As discussed after the race. The pace car was incredibly slow. When the pace car pulled off I went to 5K rpm second gear and held it till the green flag dropped. I did the same last race at Portland and also ORP. From Colins in car it does look extremely fast, from my vantage it isn't. I will download my video and post tonight.

Mark

I have been in several Group 5 races this year where the starts have been bad for the midpack folks. Generally the field spreads a bit after the pace car pulls off only to hit the brakes hard. I've been burned by it a couple times including really bad at Seattle on a restart. Thus I try to stay close but leave a reasonable gap, however not so much as to be cheating at the start.

Once the pace car pulls off the pole sitter dictates the pace. Maybe it could be slower but I have heard stories of people using that right to pace the field to their advantage. Group 5 has big grids and I think the starter also has to make a call based on a decent order in the first several rows. With 23 rows of traffic the back is never going to be perfect.

Because of how things played out Sunday I got a pretty much unabated run from 12 all the way down the front straight, which is why I blew right by Colin when the field checked up and got up alongside Rick by T1. No question my advantage was unfair here and I too think we should have gone around again.

http://vimeo.com/27751493

Ultimately it sounds like our race Sunday just had a weird start, but we definitely have had more of those than clean ones this year.

mark_hanken said:

As the pole sitter I would like to comment.
As discussed after the race. The pace car was incredibly slow. When the pace car pulled off I went to 5K rpm second gear and held it till the green flag dropped. I did the same last race at Portland and also ORP. From Colins in car it does look extremely fast, from my vantage it isn't. I will download my video and post tonight.

Mark

Click to expand...

This is why I'm starting to think the rule itself needs clarification. The pace car or the pole sitter doesn't mean the pace car and the pole sitter..... or does it? :frown:

If this kind of thing keeps happening there's going to be a pile up. Mark, my concern isn't that you brought your car "up to 5krpm" but how fast you did it. If the driver, any driver, on pole has a starting speed THAT drastic between what the pace car is trotting along at then they need to lower their starting speed or have a talk with the pace car before the race about his speed. I look forward to seeing the video.

At the point that the Pace Car exited track, the grid is under the Starter's orders.

Did the Starter order any increase in speed?
Should the Pole position car maintain the already established 'pace' until the starter has given the green?
Should the Pole position car keep pace with the Pace Car as it moves down the Hot Pit lane (I think NASCAR does that)?

The point is staying orderly, I think. And I think that if the pole position jumps out in anticipation so do the others behind, but then the Starter waits because it is a large grid and perhaps he/she would like to see more of the grid around T12, or rows 5-10 catch up to the surge before execution... whatever. The issue that I have is when the first couple rows slow down for a later green than THEY anticipated, and THAT can cause disasters 10-15 rows back with the accordion affect.

Just thinkin' about what I have seen. They can't drive the cars for you, it takes drivers' discipline, even with the heat of an adrenaline induce red haze pushed up by the spotters looking over the Starters' shoulder.

Okay, Go!

mark_hanken said:

.... The pace car was incredibly slow. When the pace car pulled off I went to 5K rpm second gear and held it till the green flag ....Mark

Click to expand...

This is an OFTEN seen issue in my opinion. I realize the Pace Car must start out slowly to 'gather' the pack. However, it often ends up being way too slow for 'race cars'. Although we didn't race Portland but a few times, my son routinely stated that the Pace Car was way to slow to keep the engine going and he had to 'ride the clutch' (not a good thing).

IMO... a 'good' pace to begin a rolling start is 50 or 60 MPH. By the time the Pace Car gets half way along the back straight at Portland and, when he exits Turn 9 at Seattle that is the speed he should be at.

Then, yes. It's up to the Pole Sitters to MAINTAIN that speed until the green flag is shown.

NOT slowly accelerate to 75. NOT speed up/slow down. This is more likely to occur after the Pace Car just doesn't set a 'good pace'.

It's sometimes painful to be on the back side at Seattle and watch the Pace Car leading the pack through 5/6 at 30 MPH.... sigh. talk about frustration in the cockpit!

This whole 'speed up' thing after the Pace Car is off (assuming the pace is "good" 50/60) probably got started from too much watching NASCAR and CART. CART was 'notorious' for false starts. I once saw Paul Tracy (pole sitter) "BLOW" 3 starts in a row at Portland (wave offs) for 'jumped start'.

The grid must be orderly, in a tight formation and be moving at a
constant and moderate pace prior to receiving the green flag from the starter.

Sixty MPH on a straight seems like a good speed for the pace lap as they come around the last corner for the green. When I ran the pace car in Seattle several times, I was told to go at 40MPH, which is too slow for a decent start.

Having now been on pretty much all ends of the grid--my 2cents:

**The pace car AND the pole sitter need to maintain a pace coming onto the straight that allows the rest of the field IN 2 BY 2 FORMAT to navigate the last turn and still stay closed up with the front of the field. **
While in ITA, I was stuck behind a couple cars and a GAP, going into 12 (PIR), when the green flew. Been stuck going into last corner (2 by 2...) at Mission when the green flew. Talk about disadvantage and a rotten start.
Net result, one particular speed for starts is not realistic. It depends on the track and the final corner. Remember it's harder to take the corner side-by-side.

If there is too much acceleration for the front runners coming onto the straight, often the back of the field can't even see that the green flew until the car directly in front of them speeds up. That's just not fair.

Eric, please let me know which starts you had trouble with in Gp5 this year (having trouble remembering a restart in gp5--?). If I was the pole sitter, I definitely want to know what the trouble was and I will see if I have video of what I did. I seriously empathize with you--it's very frustrating to get screwed on the start.

This last weekend, the problem seemed to be that the acceleration was rapid to start with and then leveled out. This sort-of checked up the front, and caused that slinky effect, as the less powerful cars behind us were still "racing" to catch up when the flag flew. (Some of you would have seen better if there were also people that jumped the gun.) This created a speed differential that caused a potentially disastrous pile-up going into turn one.

I think it's good to analyze this kind of thing so we can do better in the future. Sometimes we don't realize the effects of an action until it's brought to our attention.

Additionally, maybe the starter needs to know that we, as drivers, desire that he take a harder stand on not flying the green until the grid is tight. People seem to complain about "going around again", but if that's what's necessary to give the entire field a fair start, then I'm all for it.

Maybe the License Director can emphasize the importance of staying caught up with the field, not only for Race Starts, but also for FCY and restarts. Sounds like something to add to his soapbox maybe?

I'm with Karen on this one. You should be gridded tight and caught up by T9 at PIR, all the way to the back of the grid. If you're not, and you have fast movers on the front of the grid, there's a good chance you and the folks behind you are going to get left.

On her point with FCY's - this doesn't mean drive slowly. It means drive quickly to catch the car in front of you (and he/she should be doing the same). Know where the incident and the workers are, and respect them by slowing down and having the car under control. After you are by the incident, it's your job to catch the cars in front. This way, the next time by the incident, hopefully, the whole group is under the control of the pace car.

That makes the workers feel a whole lot better...

Dan

Steve Adams said:

.... I was told to go at 40MPH, which is too slow for a decent start.

Click to expand...

Totally agree with that. Not only 'too slow' for a decent start but, dang near impossible for GT-1, SPO, and some Formula cars. You can always tell where it really isn't working when the front of the pack is 'throbing' LOL

<happens>
45~50-ish car grid is released... Pace car goes 'lights out' at T9 per procedure, still the last car is Apex T5. What's a Pace Car driver to do? Pre-Grid can't put them on the track any faster than they go. Of course, there's always those 'techsters', still fiddlin' with their high tech goody's...

But I digress...

It's probably a good thing to work with your local Pace Car driver(s), and give them some feedback that can help them plan their tactics better. Bonding off of the track, as opposed to otherwise.

After review of the video, I will agree with Colin and Rick. I did accelerate to 5K rpm just as I did in April. The rate in which I achieved it was drastically different. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. If I am fortunate enough to lead you again I will do it different.

I too have been at both ends of Group 5. I respect and appreciate the drivers throughout the field and appologize for the start at Portland.

Mark

Karen i was just talking about this weekend and the 3 races i did. G5 was the worst of the 3 not G1 or G2.

If the pace car was to slow as it left the track and the leader, in this case you Mark, needs to be very careful how fast they adjust the speed, an easy maybe half acceleration for a true EIP or a GTL car in 2nd will be almost full throttle on some of the other class cars behind. Then if the starter waits to throw the green because from his view we are to spread out, we get a higher chance on contact in the middle pack or tail before the green comes out. No one wants that, I dont mind losing a bunch of spots on the start because I cant see the green and someone else can or has a radio, thats racing on your own. I just dont want the race to end before I have a chance to pass you ALL by getting contact before the green

Wrong "Eric"--My comment was directed toward Eric Schwenter.

No worries Mark. I appreciate your comments.

Just because I am curious, what speed (MPH) are you aiming for at 5K?


I think the 60+ that been thrown out in couple of posts is much too fast as the grid will never be able to assemble into a tight two by two grid. I'll throw 30-45MPH out as a decent speed. If we make slow approaches to the starters stand, the grids have a greater opportunity to be tight and uniform and for the starter to see much deeper in the field making for a much more even and fairer starts. I will concede that different groups may have different needs due to gearing.

Karen,
Your PR start was terrific. What speed did you take us to the greeen?

For comparisons, here is Colins video for PR http://www.vimeo.com/27137709

R