Chump Car racing live

Nope, not my question Ken, nor my point.

Are the workers paid and only one per corner? Do you think that's safe?

As for enduros, I hate them, won't work them - four hours, or maybe six, is my limit. And no, I don't apologize for that - I'm still volunteering for as many of the Conference races as I can make, and I think that should be enough, don't you?

I might have volunteered to stand out in the cold and dark (and probably wet) for hours and hours 20 years ago when I first started, but not anymore.

Mike said "... I'd be concerned about the risk of damage. Many of the drivers have little or no wheel-to-wheel racing experience and the disparity in driver skill in these races seems to be pretty high."

My concern is more with the driver's safety. I'm allowed to be concerned, am I not?

As for ice racing, apparently they do have quite a number of volunteer, unpaid workers at those races! Again, not something I'm willing to do anymore (and after all, willingness is all part of being a volunteer, right?)
 
ChumpCar has a class for "regular" race cars like ours that don't need to adhere to the $500 rule.

Is the class graduated, or do all "regular" race cars compete against each other? In other words, if I bring my Spec Miata, do I risk having to run against someone's Formula Atlantic?
 
Bonnie,

As a racer I can assure you any time you spend volunteering is MUCH appreciated. By everyone.

As for the safe conditions at the ChumpCar event, your concerns were mine too. Which is why I did not enter a car. The start of the race this years was..... interesting. there was no pace car and cars were around the track before the grid cleared. Could not tell when the actual race started, quite a mess. There was many flags thrown, and I saw cars moving quite fast around the "safety" trucks. There was spin and subsequent incidents in turn 3 at nearly the end of the race that took them 3 minutes (yes I was timing it) to get someone on scene. It didn't get cleared up until after the race was over. the line up behind the incident looked like an on-ramp during rush hour.

Improvements needed, absolutely.

they did pay the workers. Talk to Kim for details.

With all that said and done, I am going to build a POS for the April race. I do not want to turn in into a bumper car or demolition derby. Overall I think they did OK. Would I feel comfortable in my regular car? Hell no. Lap times were not that far off some of our times, on street or nearly street tires. Concerned, Yes I will be. But I am still going to try it.

All our volunteer workers are important to us racers. If we do not say thank you every time we are wrong. THANK YOU.
 
It was an invite, Bonnie. Not a challenge. But we that have been in the 'game' for many years have a tendency to look down our proboscus at programs that may not fit the mold of our personal training/experience to the exclusion of objective observation. I offer a solution. Come and play with us. Couple hours on, four off, couple on someplace else, and so on. It's different, and it can only be as much fun as you let yourself have.

I volunteered my time, skills, and equipment. Mainly because I wanted to support those members of my racing family that had taken advantage of the opportunity to not only be a part of this fun, and frolic, but to supplement their income by even a little bit. And I saw the rising tide of entries. How could I possibly NOT want be a part of that?

This is only ChumpCar's second time @ PIR, and they knew coming in that they would need workers (duh). So, instead of initially depending on any particular entity to 'ram-rod' their show, they sent an agent to offer pay for a certain number of positions. The truth is that they were taken by surprise with the number of entries too.

Yes, one per turn for the most part, but some turns were re-inforced while others wound up with more volunteers rotating in as the event progressed. Cathy Frasier, and Bob Smethers roamed, as some of the Workers' Revenge Team did stints at T6, and T11. It would have been nice to have enough people involved to afford a 'buddy' system at every turn, but for the lack of more participants...

Dave Marden did a great job of juggling those logistics, while also flagging at Pit-Out (Which served as the BF, MBF, and Start/Finish from the end of the wall), AND he got to race a stint or two in the 97 white car. They only had enough lights (red, and yellow only) to supply T1, T4, T6, T8, T11, and T12. And the only flag set was at Pit-Out.

The Chump Monkey Safety Team consisted of Trunk Monkey (Adam Jacobsen) with Dan Wilkins in the PIR 'Chase' Truck, designated 'Safety', Mitch VanAlstyne of Sergeants' Towing (our normal wrecker driver for CSCC events), one ALS (Metro-West), myself in 'Safety-Lite' (my Bronco II that has served me well as a rapid response vehicle at both PIR, and ORP this year), with Russ Newhouse, and Micah Dolim grabbing some shotgun time. Add to that the special extraction tool demo truck from Santiam Emer. Equip. Inc. (Safety-Equipment) with an arsenal of nifty power tools, a couple of 20# powders strapped to an available ledge, and a guy (some call him, Tim) that knew how to use them. I think we'll see more of him next year (good networking).

Unsafe for the drivers? 71 cars? Maybe, but only because there wasn't a whole lotta room on the course in some places, but otherwise things were no more unsafe than the Lords of the Cosmic Jest would allow. That's racing. Look at the start of most off-road races. The drivers were given a multi-hour ground school Friday night. So it had to be more than, "Go drive the car, and don't hit anybody."

The rules for equipping the cars is pretty complete, although not as intricate as SCCA, ICSCC, NASA, but they aren't writing them for the potential of 200mph cars either. Fire systems (bottles), full roll cages, no glass, last year for Snell2000 helmets, etc. There is some intelligent thought put into them, and everybody left with all of their fingers and all of their toes. The ambulance never moved from their position except to go home. In fact, true to the norm of our other races, the only real injury of the weekend was a 'walk-up' from the paddock.

I ask about ice racing because, not having been to one, I was interested in just how much crazier that game is by comparison.

Whether, or not you would put yourself out there isn't an issue. We are all volunteers, but that is not a bat that we need to swing. And I'm not as young as I think you are, so we can decide for ourselves under what conditions that we are willing to subject ourselves. Not because we are motivated by the offer of income, but perhaps only to enjoy the simple rewards of the motorsport activities.

Bonnie, know this. You are always welcome to play here with us. Whenever YOU want to.

As for ChumpCar... I think that they went home with a different appreciation for the existing infra-structure that the local racing family represents, and much more knowledge of how PIR runs, as a racing circuit than they had before.

Wacky Racers sm.jpg

With our participation, it can only get better, yes?
 
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Is the class graduated, or do all "regular" race cars compete against each other? In other words, if I bring my Spec Miata, do I risk having to run against someone's Formula Atlantic?

It's called the "Exception Class" and they only allow you to run the car in two ChumpCar races. The idea is that it's a "Try before you buy"-type thing. After those two races, you'll need to come back with a $500 ChumpCar to race.

No really fast cars, either. This class is limited to ITA/B/C/S, Spec Miata, etc. type cars. It's all in the rules here:
http://www.chumpcar.com/chumpcar-rules.pdf

I wouldn't risk your nice SM, Steve. But maybe picking up a cheap first Gen Spec RX7 would be the way to go?
 
With all that said and done, I am going to build a POS for the April race. I do not want to turn in into a bumper car or demolition derby. Overall I think they did OK. Would I feel comfortable in my regular car? Hell no. Lap times were not that far off some of our times, on street or nearly street tires. Concerned, Yes I will be. But I am still going to try it.

Let me know if you need any help building the car.
 
Is it true that they pay for cornerworkers by invite and have only one per turn? THAT's what I find concerning ...

They were paying for one per corner, but pure volunteers were welcome. I didn't work the event this year due to the need for surgery on my left shoulder. I watched the event from home live via the Internet. I had a hoot last year and plan to work the event in the future. I hope the organization grows up and thinks a little more about the dangers involved. They could not work out a deal with Cascade since they didn't not want to run it with the equipment Cascade would normally use at a Conference event. Different strokes. Cascade doesn' run with the kind of equipment that Champ Car (CART) used. Different strokes. Considering the wide skills differential, I was amazed last year and this, that there were not more car-to-car incidents. It seems that most are in it for the fun factor, rather than the red-haze, go-for-blood that we sometimes see at more serious events. I think that the event could have been better promoted among the worker core and they would have easily had workers for two or more per corner. The word about being open to having others volunteer while some were being paid didn't get out until the last minute when individuals requested the possibility. Perhaps next year, they will have a representative at the morning meetings to plug the event and tell folks what they can expect. The way it was handled, it seemed like an invitation-only event for working. I hope that Chump Car gets the word out better before the April event.
 
Sorry Kenny ... but it really did sound like a challenge, as though if I wasn't there I shouldn't be asking - and I didn't think that was fair. Glad to hear I'm always welcome! I have fond memories of my treks down to Portland crowded into Rick Neydli's van after work on a Friday night, then making the long drive home Sunday night and getting up early Monday morning to go back to work - they were fun times, and I loved the track and the people. But I don't have the energy for that anymore, Seattle's as far as I can manage ... and if the border continues to be as bad as it's been on the trip home the last couple of races, may even have to re-think those trips!

So I thought it was interesting that Chump Car only thinks it needs one worker per corner, with lights instead of flags, and 70 cars on the track with a huge disparity in driver experience. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, and the fact it hasn't happened in either of their two outings in Portland? Well, I've bought lottery tickets and still haven't won either! I'm glad to hear their safety requirements are stringent - but how do they manage to tech 70 cars? If their fire suppression systems, helmets, seatbelts, roll cages, etc. are mandated to certain specifications considered safe, that's good! But if it takes too long for safety to be able to respond because of a lack of track "workers" (or volunteers) should a "big one" happen, then that's ... not good? In my opinion.

Anyway, I shall go back to the sidelines and continue reading - glad everyone had a good time! And thanks Kyle for your kind words, I DO know the Conference drivers appreciate what we do, just as I appreciate the great shows you put on for my entertainment! (in 30 minute increments though ...) [for me anyway!!!] ;)
 
There was one paid corner worker per corner. Pure volunteers were not welcomed. A least I didn't feel welcome...not even a little welcomed. Ken volunteered himself and his tow-able vehicle. Ken was able to glean that I could've volunteered, but, that wasn't until late afternoon on Friday, well after I had to make a commitment for something on Saturday evening. Nothing done ahead of time to obtain volunteers, just a certain few were offered paid positions. I disagree with this, not because I wanted to be paid (I don't). I'm a Pro, not because I'm a paid but, because I'm great. I paid $15 to go in, because I wanted to take Ken a Starbucks and say hello to the worker's team.

From what I saw, it was fairly safe, but, mostly because the cars don't seem to go very fast, and they also don't take it quite as deep as our drivers do. There seemed to be a ton of incidents with mechanical issues. No pace car is kinda weird. They only used lights - a yellow and a red. Yellow for anything yellow. Red for a red. They used radios, that didn't seem to get the best reception. The drivers seem to have a just for fun attitude which is infectious.

If the Dovers hadn't been there taking care of Safety and Base Comm, the event would not have been efficient. I would love to work the event. I had a great time last year, I was pleasantly surprised. I'd still like to work it, even with the laid back way they run it. 71 cars. It would have been a blast!
 
Rob/Bonnie - I just went back and read your posts all way through. As usual, agreed.

They didn't need to pay workers. They needed to get the word out about the fun.

I've told Race Chairmen forever. We generally don't mind being out there for a long, long time...as long as we have something to do!
 
Its not WHAT you paid for it, the $500.00 value is what is it worth. If you were to do an internet search for a car, given the current condition it is in, that is the baseline value. You can put used parts on it to go to the dollar limit. Using Erics car as an example, if it was worth $400.00 because it had a blown engine and $400.00 was a fair price you could put a $100.00 used engine in it. This rule is pushed to the max, just look at some of the cars out there this weekend. A Datsun 1600 roadster with a KA24DE and 5 speed?? Come on. They said they paid $150 for the engine. I find that a bit hard to believe for a solid runner, AND the transmission. But who really cares right. They had a blast.

Kyle, the roadster you are talking about is mine, Todd Stanley's and co owned by Joe Klokkevold. I feel like I keep having to defend my car and I'm not sure why. The Roadster looks really nice at 50' but look closer. First we ran it with a L1600 in Spokane. We had many problems one of which we broke the cam into three sections. First to find a replacement L1600 [junk yard motor that runs] well probably is not going to happen. Just a cam alone can get expensive. Now as far as the motor lets get the facts straight. It's not a KA24DE as they are hard as hell to find. The motor is a SR20DE. Yes it's was bought at a wrecking yard for $150. I invite anybody to look at the receipt and they are more than welcome to call the business I got it from. BTW it is a core motor. The tranny is out of a junk yard 280ZX and I had a friend of mine put new brass in it. Just remember what else was out there: 84 Corvette, 1st gen RX7 with a 302, old SP Miata's and the car that won Saturday was a Sentra with the same motor that's in my car, just to name a few. $500 cars??
Three of our drivers run ICSCC. Two in FC, one in FL and the last one used to run FV in the mid 90's. Three of us plan on running as many Conference races as we can. Chumpcar is just a fun diversion. And yes we did have a blast. 9th overall on Saturday.
There is talk about the corner workers or lack of them. Let's face it Conference has the best workers out there! So to me that's tough for any organization to live up to. Yes I would like to see more workers. Yes the lights are a great tool but they only work if the drivers pay attention. Not sure what the answer is.
Conference has nothing to worry about. It's a strong organization and who knows, you may get some of the Chumpcar racers to come race with us.
 
Greetings - My name is John and i'm the "Chief Chump" at ChumpCar. A friend sent me a note about the pre- and post-race chatter on the Conference forum, stating that there were a few misconceptions/misunderstandings about ChumpCar that I ought to address to ensure a good working relationship between ChumpCar and Conference in the future... which is what we want.

First, I'll apologize if this post runs a little long, but you guys have a 3-page head-start on me! ;-)

In 2009, ChumpCar held its first, inaugural event at PIR for our 24-hour race. Following the advice of PIR track management, we contacted the Cascade Sports Car Club and hired the club to handle all of the emergency services, corners and tower management. It was great and we needed that level of experience for our first event. (I have personally worked corners for over 10 years in both CalClub and SFR, and I've been a Steward, as well as a track owner, team owner, driver, etc... so I know what a good team means, especially to a new racing org like ours.)

In 2010, we have completed over 20 events - 8 of them 24-hour races and another 5 being 12-14 hour endurance races. That's a lot of events, especially when you compare that to any SCCA region. As far as hours of track time, our 2010 season was the equivalent of track time that most clubs and regions realize in 3 years of racing. The bottom-line is that we've grown, learned a lot and have perfected a system that works for our style of racing. Granted, that system and our management protocol may not fit other orgs... because ChumpCar is unlike other orgs. ChumpCar was developed "specifically" to return road racing to the way it was in the 1960's and early 1970's (when I started). We strive to be the opposite of the bureaucracy-bound, mega-hassle found in many racing orgs today (which shall remain nameless). ChumpCar is all about safety, seat-time, fun and real racing without the hassle.

For our 2010 event at PIR, I contacted the CSCC to inquire about renting certain pieces of equipment (with staff) and corner workers. However, the CSCC Board's response was "all or nothing." The problem was, ChumpCar didn't NEED all that CSCC has to offer. All we needed were corner workers and the fire/crash truck. We had everything else lined up... at a better cost and more in-line with our approach to racing. So, CSCC turned us down. So did the SCCA. Okay... so we put the word out among select circles that we needed "X" number of workers and we found our own rescue truck. We paid the corner workers who were signed up, as we have done at most tracks this season. We didn't scream about it; we didn't complain about it. We had what we needed to make the event safe and efficient... and we put on a race... a damn good one, too! Did we have volunteers at the event? Yes, we did -- about 10 of them. Did we welcome them? Yes!!! With open arms. Pit lane (4), paddock marshals (2), ChumpCar Central (for general Q&A - 1), Tech Inspection (3). Were there others I don't know about? Probably. Did we also get help from the drivers of the "Worker's Revenge" race team? Yes, and they were GREAT! Did our volunteers get a little "something" for their volunteerism? Yes, besides the two meals, t-shirt and the ChumpWine. (So, when Holly states that volunteers weren't welcome, I'm not sure who she talked to but it wasn't ANYONE from Chumpcar!) Did we NEED to pay the corner workers? Maybe not... but in light of the response we got from CSCC, we felt that paying for corner workers was the most expedient solution. (Which also leads to the point that even if we had gone through CSCC, we still would have paid for corner workers -- whether or not the workers would actually receive any renumeration.)

Regarding a single worker per corner, this methodology is bing used more and more across the country. I guess you need to travel to 20+ different race tracks a year to see the changes happening to the sport. More and more, corner workers are being restricted from attending to a disabled car (which ChumpCar agrees with whole-heartedly). It puts the worker in jeopardy, which puts the racing orgs' insurance in jeopardy. It also puts the the other drivers still on the track in harms way because, now, the flag station is being attended to by 50% of the original team. It's also critical for you to consider that flags are worthless at night. That's why we developed our own SLS (Safety Lighting System) which has been used at almost every event we've held. Do they work well? We've had tracks want to order them from us. We've had drivers tell us they never really paid attention to flag stations before we started using lights. So, by using the SLS (toggle switch activated on a 75' tether cable or using a remote control for 1-mile line of sight applications), corner workers can be in a safe, secure location, on a radio, communicating to race Central (Control) and reporting what's happening in their area of responsibility. If there's an incident, they throw on the appropriate light -- yellow or red. We use a baseline approach that ANY yellow light is to be treated as a waving yellow flag -- 70% reduction in speed, be prepared for the course to be blocked and be prepared for a possible red flag. It doesn't get any safer than that. And, when racing at night, that's the ONLY way to approach racing safely.

Two workers per station is wated cost to racing organizers and sanctioning bodies. Ten corners @ 2 people X $100 a day = $2,000. Add in pit/paddock/starter and then tower staff, there's another $1,500. That's $7,000 in expenses per weekend just for corners and track staff. (There's another $1,300 a day for an ambulance and staff + $500 a day for a tow truck and operator + $700 a day for a fire/rescue truck and staff... another $5,000 in costs.) Throw in $5M liability insurance coverage, track rental, track repair after a race, track gate security, travel and org staffing, advertising, trophies and a race purse (if the org offers it) --- hey, want to know why racing has gotten so expensive?

The funny thing is... racing doesn't have to be that way. ChumpCar has proven that.

Then there's the "EC" class that we offer. EC stands for "Exception Class." With EC, ChumpCar is making an "exception" in our rules to allow any team with an IT or Spec car to come and give our style of racing a try. You get 2 shots at it with an EC entry... then, you need to make up your mind whether you want to build a crap-can racer or continue with the "fancy, high-price spread." And, to answer the question that was asked about ChumpCar supporting the future of road racing, the best answer to that is the fact that after our event at Brainerd Int'l Raceway, their driver's school received 15 new students that wanted to learn more about road racing. The school sent me an e-mail, asking if we would put on 2 races a year at BIR... which we are.

This leads to a question that I have for you: can you name any other way for someone to get started in road racing that costs $1,000 or less? That's gear, rent-a-ride, license, entry fee -- everything.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or defensive. I'm just telling you how and why it all came out this way. We have 2 events at PIR in 2011 (April and October) and a 24-hour event at Spokane next July. We welcome everyone to come and join the fun -- REAL FUN! If you want, try building a car and putting together a team (ask Racey Gracey all about it!). Or, come and work the events. The ChumpWine is work the effort!

In the end, we're trying to be friends to all road racing groups that we meet along the way. We have over 40 events in 2011... so that's a lot of friends! I hope that we can count on Conference and CSCC to be a part of that friendship.

All the best -
John
 
Up in Base Communications was the Clerk of the Chumps, Erik presenting himself to Bonnie, and Theresa

Clerk of the Chumps.jpg
this is Erik, Race Operations Chump.
Race Ops Chump-Erik.jpg
He caught me looking over his shoulder.

So then it begins with cars going out to a FCYL to circulate. With feeling...

Dancing with the Chumps-John @POut.jpg Espresso Girl before she lost her clothes.jpg Get all 71 Chumps out there to start.jpg

At some point, when all comes into line, a correct balance of sorts, the thrust of the force, or somebody on a radio just says something like, "Let's let 'em go. Green Flag. We're racin'."

That's when every Chump in a car swoops into the chicane pretty much in the same line they were in, only in more of a hurry.

The clumps of chumps into T1 came just a few laps later...​
 
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We start the race the way we do specifically so we don't have a cluster of cars going into T1 ... at any track. There's no need to qualify for a 24 hour race, so who cares. The cars circulate for 3, 4, 5... how many laps we want until we have checked all transponders for signal strength. Then we let the Chumps warm up tires, warm up engines and lose the butterflies. We spread the cars out so there aren't cars-on-cars or bumpers-to-bumpers. In the tower, we pick a car number out of a hat and that's the "Losing Car." That means, when that car passes S/F, we give the green to the next car. They lose. With 71 cars on-track, we know that 50+ cars will be spread out somewhere on course and we will only have 10+ cars surging into T1. On the track, the yellow lights/flags are dropped and the Chumps realize that we're racing. It's a lot safer this way... and a lot more fun! We've started every race this way and we've NEVER had an incident.

John
 
Meet my friend
Chief-ish Chump Monkey.jpg
He's a Trunk Monkey
At least he was a Trunk Monkey when he got here.
Notice the transformation?
Now he's a Chump Monkey.

Erik wanted us all in one pile.
It was a good pile, I think.
CMST Standing by.jpg
That Yellow truck went out first... a lot...
I got to help sometimes.

Dave couldn't keep 'track' of all of us.
But he did okay.
That's the point.jpg
he had other stuff, too.
Wascally Wabbit.jpg Worker's Revenge 2010.jpg
I could go on all day, because we did.
And well into the evening when they had a party.​
 
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John, thanks for posting, great feedback and tip of the hat to your growth. You've certainly hit a sweet spot for participation. Good luck in 2011.
 
So your drivers didn't pay attention to flags before the light system came into use and it's really better for all concerned if turn workers don't respond to incidents? Where do I sign up? :(
 
"...better for all concerned..."

I don't think so, Bob. But somebody has to go out there, don't they? Turn workers are what? Flag/Communications/Safety Marshals? All we've done is trade our boots on the ground for boots in trucks. Nice work if you can get it. Nice trucks, if they can afford them. But either way, somebody has to go out and take care of that "customer". And whether those customers happen to know one end of a tow strap from the broken one.

It's a chronic disease within the last decade that turn personnel are becoming so few at so many other venues that they are unable to staff enough personnel to provide response from the turn stations. Obviously, we can't abandon a flag station for a single incident if you only have one or two people in it. And because of this, Safety Marshals have all but been isolated to vehicular response units, and that most certainly requires the additional use of many flashing lights. Not to mention extra traffic for the competitors to maneuver around.

It has become an unfortunate fact that, in order for the show to go on, even SCCA's GCR has softened the mandate of two per station. That tells you something.

Is it safe? That's certainly a common question these days. Sometimes an acceptable risk is all relative to the 'level' of racing activity taking place, and where it is taking place, yes? Time Trials, Driver Trainings, track days, and so on, running perhaps only 20 cars in a group allowing for better overall observation IF enough stations are manned to observe the whole track surface. But it's worked so far, yes? So extending that convenient logic and we find that...

Somebody must test those limits. It is the nature of things.

So much like the 'cars/mile' equation conversations that we've had on this forum. Just how much will fit in that bowl before it spills over the side, or maybe, eventually, the entry count itself falls as customers get used up with the battering to destruction of their crap-cans, or they sense a lack of accuracy in applying penalties due to the relative reporting skills of any particular venue's local talent.

The dollars, and sense decisions are for those running the show, and their perception of responsible liabilities. It is more than just personal risk though. The operational capacity, and efficiency of those procedures as they are executed consistently from event to event will tell the future of any motorsports organization.

Why are insurance costs are so much? The insurance company is ecstatically happy when everything goes alright, and they don't to give any of the money back in the way of claims. And as long as that continues, then all is well and rates are maintained... at least to the extent of their allowable gamble.

Why does equipment and staffing cost so much? To minimize the risk that the customer may find more satisfaction for their money elsewhere? That is the gamble of every motorsports organization.

Risk is a big part of this great sport of ours.
It may well be why we play these games in the first place.
Cliff_Edge_warning.jpg
YES?​
 
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