2009 Stewards Proposal #31 and #32: clarifiy American Sedan Rules

mikeblaszczak

Well-known member
The rule book isn't clear about which version of the American Sedan rules shall be enforced. These two mutually exclusive proposals allow drivers to select whether the immediately previous year's rules, or the current year's rules, shall be enforced.
 
Drivers - Please vote no for both of these proposals

Mike, Stewards, Other Drivers,

You are misreading the rules, and assuming there is confusion. The
rules were specifically modified to be this way by the AS drivers several
years ago when the SCCA was changing rules for the American Sedan
very quickly. The rules were specifically changed to allow any competitor
to run under any set of American Sedan rules from either the current
year or the prior year so that SCCA rules changes wouldn't force
immediate changes in ICSCC competitors cars. This was specifically worded
this way to isolate American Sedan competitors in ICSCC from the
frequent and sometimes expensive changes that American Sedan class
has been going through in SCCA.

Because of this I will be voting no on both proposals, and I would like to
encourage all other drivers to vote no on both proposals as well.

Kevin Smith
ICSCC G4 #03
Yellow 1993 American Sedan Firebird
 
.... The rules were specifically modified to be this way by the AS drivers several years ago when the SCCA was changing rules for the American Sedan very quickly. Kevin Smith ICSCC G4 #03
Yellow 1993 American Sedan Firebird

Based upon the fiasco with 4 of the top 5 cars at the Road America runoffs being DQ'd then 3 decisions being reversed, I hope you all have the CORRECT screws in your carburetors?

What a joke.... Hooray for Conference once again ! :D
 
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If that's the case, Kevin, then I'd like to see a sentence or two in the rulebook about which version of the rules prevails when there's a conflict.
 
Mike,
if I read Kevin's post correctly, BOTH would apply as long as the car completely
met one set of the rules or the other. Competitor's choice.

This comes up occasionally with the SCCA classes- they'll change the rules so fast and
so comprehensively that it's really not the same class. And it can happen at any point
in the season, althlough the March FasTrack is usually the tablet of doom. Sometimes
it's a go- fast thing, others it's a restructure attempt, and it almost always screws up
any 'amateur' level race program. Our AS rules let you either jump on the bandwagon
(if it's a huge advantage) or wait until next fall to tear your car down. It's a little counter- intuitive,
but based on my past experience, I can see why they're like that...

Kevin, am I reading this right?

Toby
 
Toby has it basically right. For any particular AS rule, if you can show
it was legal either the current year, or the previous year, then it's legal.

So if SCCA makes a rule that is a super advantage to you, and you
immediately change to take advantage of it, you're legal. If SCCA makes
a rule that causes you to have to add 200 lbs, then you can stay at
any weight you want that was legal within the last 2 years.

So, it allows a driver to update as fast as they want, but doesn't force
anyone to update until something has been in place for at least 2 years.

This, in my opinion, is much more friendly to a racer who may not have the time
or inclination to keep completely up-to-date with how fast SCCA rules may change.

BTW, the SCCA runoffs crap in the tech tent & COA this year was a travesty. Basically
to me, it sounds as though the COA overruled the tech folks on the whole
valve lift rule, making over lift limit competitors legal :-(. Thankfully, they showed some
sense in the carb screw ruling.
 
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I don't think it is ambiguous. It says either the current or the previous
years rules. That makes both/any set the priror/current year of SCCA
AS rules legal for ICSCC.

Even with your proposed changes the rules would not be any further
clarified. Suppose the rule was changed to be under the current
year SCCA AS rules. Then the question is which ones. The exact ones
that are in force on the day of the ICSCC race. Are you or your
successors as Stewards planning to keep completely up-to-date
on the changes SCCA makes over the course of the current year?

So which rules? Same goes if the proposal for previous years rule,
what exact date? The proposals as written do not get rid of any
ambiguity, they only have the effect of
undoing a rule change that the ICSCC American Sedan drivers
spent time and effort to change.

On other threads I hear you and other officials lauding ICSCC on how
driver friendly and responsive ICSCC is. This is the opposite of that.
Did you discuss this with any ICSCC AS drivers before proposing it?
 
..... Suppose the rule was changed to be under the current year SCCA AS rules. Then the question is which ones. The exact ones that are in force on the day of the ICSCC race. Are you or your
successors as Stewards planning to keep completely up-to-date
on the changes SCCA makes over the course of the current year?

So which rules?


That is one of the MANY advantages to racing with ICSCC compared to SCCA.

Although allowing the previous and 'current' years rules to prevail in American Sedan, the CURRENT years rules are locked down for the season at the beginning of the year in ICSCC. So there is some date, be it during the board meeting in November (logical moment in time) or Jan. 1, the American Sedan rules (and all others) are FIXED for the season regardless of what SCCA does to any class rules on April 12th or June 2nd.

If the above is NOT true, it should be.

Mid season last year, SCCA modified the cam, head and flywheel rules in FC. Caused a major pain for all. But I don't think any ICSCC drivers modified their cars to the new rules mid season. Well, maybe one had the mods done but I don't think he made a race.
 
I don't think it is ambiguous. It says either the current or the previous
years rules. That makes both/any set the priror/current year of SCCA
AS rules legal for ICSCC.
It's not clear if "or" is inclusive or exclusive.

Even with your proposed changes the rules would not be any further
clarified. Suppose the rule was changed to be under the current
year SCCA AS rules. Then the question is which ones. The exact ones
that are in force on the day of the ICSCC race. Are you or your
successors as Stewards planning to keep completely up-to-date
on the changes SCCA makes over the course of the current year?
We use the up-to-date rules, including published FastTrack amendments and so on. This is true for other classes, as well.

So which rules? Same goes if the proposal for previous years rule, what exact date?
They would be the rules in place at the end of the calendar year, for the previous year.

I don't think these points are new problems as the existing wording doesn't make explicit the effective dates.

On other threads I hear you and other officials lauding ICSCC on how
driver friendly and responsive ICSCC is. This is the opposite of that.
Did you discuss this with any ICSCC AS drivers before proposing it?
That's precisely what I'm doing now, Kevin. The rule hasn't yet passed, and I put up the rule change proposal rather than pushing through a clarification without driver input. If the change I've proposed is not the right thing to do, then it's easy enough to fix it or stop it.
 
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