Pacific Raceways Turn 9 query

After 3 major wrecks with open wheel cars at turn 9 over the weekend at the Double Natty's, and as I haven't been out yet this year, I was curious to know other people's opinions on whether it is any more bumpy or changed in some way which is worse in terms of unsettling stiffly sprung cars on their way through. Granted, my personal speed through 9 is directly proportional to the jump I get out of 8 which at present is pretty poor, but I have never noticed any major wowwy zowwy though there. I did happen to notice that the bump/dip/asphalt divot coming out of 2 seems worse than years past and was frightningly launching Mark Jamemko's clearly stiffly sprung Phoenix FB all the way across the track to the white line every time through. In true Jaremko form, he never backed away from it one iota in terms of either speed or line. Seems like the track might have really taken a beating over the winter, lap times were way down from where they were last year.

According to the Safety Steward, Don Holland, there are photos of one of those incidents. The pictures show the front cowling peeling up and slapping the driver of car 75 FB (FC?) in the face just before he lost control and hit the wall. Don't know about the others for sure, but there is a classic mistake that can put one in the wall there. If a car comes through and runs out of road for whatever reason and tries too hard to keep it on the track, it can end up spinning and crashing there. I've seen it done that way many times. All that being said, the entire track is in need of a new surface and some curbs to help keep the cars on the surface. We spent far too much time sweeping gravel off the track due to cars widening the course, especially in the entrance to turn 5. The bumps in turn 9 are just a small example of things that need fixing.

So what is the current scoop with all the renovations that are supposedly going to take place at Pacific? Are they still just in fund raising mode?

It's nice to see that the go-kart track is up and running, maybe the road course surface will be next.... or is that just wishful thinking?

The web site still has a tri oval going in where the road course is now, if that wasnt the long term plan I would think it would have been removed from their master plan. All else on the plan is in the works or done.

CHRONOS said:

The web site still has a tri oval going in where the road course is now, if that wasnt the long term plan I would think it would have been removed from their master plan. All else on the plan is in the works or done.

Click to expand...

Wait what? The "$135 million" renovation plan only shows a 3/8 paved oval out in the grassy parking area next to the main entrance road. It says that the plan is to get FIA certification for the road course. There is a note about a super speedway, but it is not shown on the map....

doubt they can get a tri-oval past their conditional use permit.

My personal opinion of the bump is that it is basically the same as it has been since it was "fixed". While not a problem necessarily for cars that have a little more ride height, perhaps the bump upsets cars with aero devices and low ride heights more significantly. Sort of like the Mercedes LMP cars at LeMans a few years back, where the pitch of the underbody relative to the surface caused a sudden reduction or total loss of aero downforce and the cars took flight.

Ambient conditions and perhaps some surface conditions have been a factor for me this year, my data shows a significant and comprehensive reduction is g-loads indicating a deficit of grip all around the circuit. I can't say for sure how it's impacted my lap times though since I don't have a good baseline yet, but they don't seem too far off. Of course it could just be my crappy chassis set up, since other cars in my class were turning very competitive times.

The Pabst Blue Ribbon race crew can't sort out the car eh!

We're (I'm) working on it. Changes for Portland; new shock valving and bleeds, lower canister pressure, overall raised ride height, more chassis rake, a little more pinion angle, more third link angle, raised the trailing arm angle, added some anti-dive to the front control arms, changed the control arm length for different camber gain, changed the angle of the lower front control arms and raised the track bar to change the overall roll height and roll couple relationship, oh, and I'm actually going to try some tires that aren't more than three years old. At least I followed the rule and left one thing alone. Wait,...

You could just run a PRO3 car and only have to change or adjust...Camber, toe, Springs and or Shock settings, Tire pressures, Brake pads and put gas in it.

Will you be there on Firday for some TnT action?

Testing Thursday Prodrive, instructing Friday.

robjacobsen said:

According to the Safety Steward, Don Holland, there are photos of one of those incidents. The pictures show the front cowling peeling up and slapping the driver of car 75 FB (FC?) in the face just before he lost control and hit the wall.

Click to expand...

That was Steve Litsky who also runs with us in ICSCC. I talked to him on Monday when he came out to pick up the pieces.

He's pretty despondent over the entire affair. This was a BIG hit that did a lot of damage to the car and will be a costly repair. He is meditating on the wisdom of continuing after 2 pretty car damaging incidents in 2 years both at the SCCA double. Top that off with a left rear wheel taking it's own path in the kink the day before due to not torqueing the wheel nuts and you can understand his feelings. Thank goodness he kept it between the walls there.

Told him to QUIT that SCCA stuff, come out to ICSCC and paddock with US! We'll try to help him. He's doing the racing totally on his own and that ain't easy when you're brand new to the sport and open wheels.

Any way, the incident. Yes there's a photo from T-10 showing the front shock cowling flying up. But his recollection is, the car drifted out into the dirt at the exit of 9 and he felt something go "funny" in the left front wheel. Me thinks perhaps he tapped the brakes but don't know. Next thing he knew it was gone and he 'ducked and covered'. Has no recollection of the cowling causing the problem.

I'd sure like to see the photo to see if 4 wheels were still on the pavement when that cowling flew up. As of Monday, he hadn't seen it either. In the confusion of the impact, he may not really appreciate what caused it.

I find the bump to be more noticeable in the M3 than in my Crossle. So more weight equals more bounce in my opinion, but either way it seems to have stayed the same for a couple of years now.
Most of those incidents seem to be triggered by ill advised passing attempts thru 9, which is rarely a good idea. The single car events would seem to be due to bad apexes and running out of asphalt, then trying to correct rather than riding it out in the dirt.
I know it was repaired some time ago, but that didn't really help much.

Appreciate the input guys, anything that help keep me off of a wall anywhere is good with me. Seeing a $60K Stohr FB, a $15K VanDiemen FC, and a priceless in terms of being a homebuilt labor of love Squirt DSR totaled in the same place is enough to make me suspect something has changed there. Yes, the surface is crap for the most part, but cold winters like we just had can obviously wreak havoc on asphalt sufaces, especially if they are in piss poor condition to begin with. Curious if any open-wheelers have an analysis on the matter. As Randy said, things are much different with cars (like mine) that depend on diffusers for downforce and are set up to actually bottom out on the worst bumps on the track until the tire pressures come up enough. So far we have one vote for the bump being no different...

I'm not the best person to comment considering how much seat time I've had at PR in the recent past. But, having said that, here's my take on the condition of T9 at Pacific Raceway. It has sucked for a long, long time! A few years back Jason & Co reworked that section of the track. My recollection is that it was done as an after-thought when they were doing a bunch of other repaving projects and had some time & asphalt left over. They tried hard to make an improvement to T9 but somehow missed the mark. I'm sure that laying asphalt smoothly through a corner must be much more difficult than it would appear on the surface of things. Either that or it was done late on a Friday afternoon after the Budweiser keg had already long since been tapped.

I have very good (read expensive), well adjusted double adjustable shocks on my Crossle and there is no place else in Conferencedom where my car gets as upset as it does going through T9 at PR. I've tried lots of different lines through there and none seem to work well. Nothing seems to help. But, do not, DO NOT!!!, early apex!!!

That's all I'm going to say on the subject.

One exception, sorry. T9 is the most important turn on the track. Beg, plead, bribe, whatever it takes, but get Jason & Co to fix (and fix right!) the problem. A little butt grinding and 25 cubic yards of asphalt would let you do 200 lineal feet of track 30 feet wide and 4 inches thick. According to Wikipedia the average cost of 2 inch thick asphalt is about $1.80 per square foot. Double that for 4 inch thick and round up to $4.00. 6,000 sq ft x $4.00... roughly $24K. I'll step up to the plate for $100. Hell, I don't need new tires this season. I know it's not our responsibility but if that's what it takes, sign me up.

Jason, if you read this, let us know what it will take to fix the problem. Too many cars have already been damaged or destroyed to just ignore the fact that there is a serious problem with T9 at Pacific Raceway.

I'm going to display my ignorance here, so bear with me.
Is the bump in turn nine actually near the termination of the turn or am I not noticing all the surface irregularities in a road car?
If the said bump is near the exit of turn nine, are the cars not getting out of shape well before this point (either by early apexing or other reasons)?
Or are the cars (especially the low ground clearance ones) getting unsettled and then hitting the wall further down the front straight?

rod rammage said:

I'm going to display my ignorance here, so bear with me. Is the bump in turn nine actually near the termination of the turn or am I not noticing all the surface irregularities in a road car?

Click to expand...

I've never driven the corner at serious speed in anything let alone Jeff's FC but I must have watched many thousands of cars go through there from T-9 station and the corner grandstand. This isn't a 'new' incident point but it has gotten worse over the years.

The 'hazard point' seems to start about 3/4 of the way around the corner as drivers are letting the car drift out toward the exit path and heading for the grassy edge. Suspensions are still fully loaded to the left side and under full acceleration.

"Production type" cars will hit the ripple (used to be just one bump) and seem to 'Porpoise' along as they reach the edge of the grass with some loss of stability. Sports racers, formula cars and even the Legends will hit that spot and the reaction is completely different. Because of the lateral G loads, very stiff suspenions and low ground clearance, the cars go into 'bounces' AND more importantly, because of the 'bounces' you can see the variation in lateral loading making the chassis (expecially at the rear) flex side to side (induces a wobble). That's a very unstable situation both in terms of maintaining control but also, puts huge loads on strong (but not that strong) suspension parts and brackets that are DESIGNED to break away under impact to absorb energy on sports racers and formula cars (Bob Fox.. per workers may have had something break in the rear suspension).

The back end 'kicks out' a little the drivers natural reaction is to steering correct. If they're still in the bumps, the back end tends to get really lose, a tank slapper starts and he's in for a bad ride. Option 2, if at the wrong moment, sure as heck the left rear wheel is in the dirt and there they go around. 98% of the guys who look for too much pavement and get 2 wheels in the dirt ride it out and gently get the car back on the pavement.

Is the corner a 'hazard'? It's really a great racing corner. But, yes something needs to be done. It's a terrific weekend when completed without a car into the grandstand wall at that corner.

Smooth the bump and just maybe add about 18 inche wide FLAT FIA type curbing along the grass edge at the exit for about 30 or 40 feet. NOT racing surface but an additional 'cushion'. That would probably cut the incident rate by at least 80%.

I KNOW why Rod is asking the question here. I went out and walked all over T9 yesterday trying to comprehend what's going on that cost us over $100,000 of sports racers and formula cars last weekend. Walking it and eye balling it, you really cannot see the problem.

That's my opinion as an observer that knows nothing and is probably all wrong.

Jaremko commented on this situation:

QUOTE:
The rollers on the exit of nine and entrance to five are a real challenge to tune for. A car that is too softly sprung or damped tends to not be able to keep up with all the track is throwing at it, so stiffer was better for us.
END QUOTE:

Keep in mind, he drives on a different level then mere humans. What works for him may not work for anybody else!

LOL KEN!
That Fusion is a COOL CAR! Was the C/SR winner and looks terrific going around the track. If you don't like it, you must not have much use for Grand Am Prototypes

Richard. Thanks for an excellent and cogent description of the issue! Really appreciated!
Is there any possibility that these bumps are part of what we in the Great White North call a "frost heave"? If so, grinding, smoothing, or repair to the frost heave will only result in its re-appearance in the future?

The repairs at that point a few years back came about when Jason drove his GTI stock car like ride over it and realized how nasty the bump was. It is better now in my opinion, but it obviously is worsening with time and needs to be dealt with soon.
It always looks worse from the grandstand, but if you hit it wrong it is really noticeable in the car!

Having just ran the recent Dbl Nats in an SM, I don't find the T9 bump a MAJOR cause for concern. I’ll admit thinking it far more atrocious in past years, so maybe it has improved somewhat (or I’ve numbed to it). I also concede that higher HP cars are a different issue here, but to that I add, “caveat emptor when walls threaten”. As far as I am concerned, a far greater issue is the absolutely horrific road surface on both T2 and T8. The shredding the tires take while grating over the harsh surface is unbelievable.