IRDC Marketing Idea - Time Trials/Time Attack during Driver Training Days?

mikecolangelo

Well-known member
Hi all. I read the recent announcement of the IRDC's marketing meeting on Feb 23 to bring more people into our road racing hobby. I won't be able to make the meeting but I thought I'd throw this out as food for thought: Why not create a Time Trial/Time Attack run group during the Driver Training days?

I believe that this will appeal to the enthusiasts out there who want to compete on a road racing track but are leery of wheel-to-wheel contact and are turned off at the high cost of campaigning a full-blown race car (along with the cost of owning/maintaining/storing a trailer and tow vehicle). It would allow for street cars to compete on the track but against the clock and not directly against each other. The car in its class with the fastest lap time wins.

NASA has had much success with its Time Trial/HPDE 4 run group and many of its race drivers came from that group. Similarly, Redline Track Events has created a nationwide Time Attack competition with classes ranging from street cars to unlimited track monsters. NASA's Time Trial rules and Redline's "street class" rules don't require rollcages but I know that they both encourage the use of at least a good rollbar, racing seat, and harness.

Anyway, just food for thought regarding making racing more affordable. I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts on this.
 
Mike, I agree that more aggressive marketing is needed to maintain our little niche in the world of motorsport. The problem with a 'time attack' or 'solo I' idea is the 'time'. The schools are very hurried as it is, and with novices and lappers out there it makes for a very full day, assuming no accidents or other issues arise. So adding another element would not be feasible, unless the lapping group were to be replaced with this other group.
The main issue I believe would be insurance related. If you introduce high speeds under a timed scenario, the insurance would jump up drastically, and the income derived from that group would probably not offset the added cost of that insurance.
I may be wrong, but I think that is the main problem with your scenario.
 
Thumbs up on that, Wes.

More "Track Days" (or HPDE's) could very well be a GOOD idea. The Track Day in March at Bremerton (although not a GIGANTIC turn out ((it's cold! )) ) does draw people who are not ICSCC competition drivers. Rather, people looking for just an on track experience. Doing more then 2 a year might encourage more people to join the ranks of competitive driving and give the club more exposure.

On the other hand, the "Driver Training" is NOT resricted to individuals seeking a competition license. Two will be held at Pacific Raceway this year. At least in past years, these classes have been pretty much filled to the limit of senior drivers available as instructors and it would be 'nice' if most of the students were indeed seeking competition licenses.

On the other hand, I'm not aware of any restriction on people going through the school multiple times? It's a heck of a good experience and is the equivalent of an HPDE with the added benefit of a full time instructor! Really, a HECK of a bargain for the price.

On the other hand, once you introduce the element of competitive adrenaline into the mix with timed sessions and a "winner" being identified you're into a whole different scenario. That $5.75 medal at the end of the day increases the willingness to take 'risks'. And there-in is the problem.

At the moment, both "Track Days" and "Drivers Training" are run with a minimum of corner workers (usually 1 to the critical corners), no timing/scoring and the communications net is functioning at the minimum required for safety. None at the level needed for an on track competitive situation. So, to add a group like that to Driver Training would mean a big upgrade in the off track support.

Certainly additional track days/time trials are worth considering outside of the "Driver Training" day. It's a question of promotion, staffing and the venue(s) that needs to be addressed. That may be quite difficult when you consider the level of 'stress' on the ROD staff with our current 13 race weekend schedule.
 
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Both Wes and Rick have covered the main issues. Insurance and safety being the big ones here.
Regarding the Seattle track days, I have never understood why there aren't more. Portland has Cascade running 5-6 school/HPDE days, plus TC schools, plus ProDrive. Cascade schools have consistently been either close to full or overflowing with entrants. I suggest giving people more opportunities to get on-track. It will generate interest and progressively, it will generate racers. Not to mention, the added opportunity for us racers to get more practice before race weekends at Seattle.

Yes, people take the schools more than once. We have alot of repeat offenders...
If you put on a good, organized event for a reasonable cost, people will come.

If you add events, you might also consider adding some additional advertising somehow, even if it's just bolder print on the websites, info on ICSCC, and especially on the track website.
 
We need to get our track day organizer involved in this discussion, Steve Barnes. It also has to do with costs and Bremerton availability. Last I heard from Steve Bremerton schedules are controlled by the drag racing club and scheduling availabilty is based on seniority. I believe there is also a cost factor, Seattle $10,400 pre day plus and Bremerton is such a small percentage of that number my remedial math skills can't even calulate it.
 
I have to throw my 2 cents in here, coming from a TT background to Conference.

TT is in my opinion the absolutely best stepping stone from auto-x or track days to race. And I think Conference is missing a huge oppurtunity by not incorporating some form of Time Trials program.

SCCA offers this form of racing here in the northwest but events have been primarily at Bremerton.

Regardless of the downsides to insurance/scheduling/etc there has to be a way to make it work.

I think as far as keeping peoples brains in the car and not letting them focus on trophies, maybe you don't give trophies. Keep the philosophy behind the program based in "self-improvement".

I have mentioned to a few people that I think adding a TT group to the DT days prior to a race weekend would be a huge hit. Scheduling depends on the DT format. Last time I was at a Cascade day, it was run just like an other track day. IRDC on the other hand did driver skills for a couple of hours in the morning.

One other thing to keep in mind -- Quite a few racers with Conference have come from SCCA TT program over the last few years. With the SCCA TT program starting to fail, how (or will it) impact Conference's future?
 
I have mentioned to a few people that I think adding a TT group to the DT days prior to a race weekend would be a huge hit.

I assume you're talking about Portland which I think works a little different then IRDC at Pacific.

The Pacfic Raceway schedule often shows the Friday before a race as a Test & Tune day leading one to believe it's IRDC run but, it really isn't. It's in fact, a "Lapping Day" run by the track as a revenue source. IRDC would in all likelyhood have to pay another full days track rental for Friday and thus, loose our entire positive revenue from the event.

This often confuses racers especially SCCA Double National guys who tow in from out of the area thinking it's a 'real' club run Test & Tune day. The discovery occurs when they get a wheel too close to the track edge sending a slight bit of dust into the air then get CHEWED OUT for it. :eek: Heaven forbid you put a wheel off while learning the track and your limits :rolleyes:

Far different from the National racing standard where you have to get 2 wheels off in the same place twice before it's even worthy of comment on the radio.
 
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No -- I am talking about any time one of the Conference clubs hosts a track day prior to a Conference race. March 7th before the enduro, April 24th before PIR, etc. It just so happens that Cascade hosts the most track days in conjuction with a race.

I'm not talking about adding any more days than already are planned. If it so happens that a club hosts a track day before a race weekend, figure out a way to add a TT run group.

Of course there are a ton of logisitical questions (transponders, safety crew, etc) -- but those are not obstacles that should prevent a TT event from taking place, just merely issues that need to be dealt with.
 
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Sorry to bounce this back up, but it is something that I've really been looking for lately. I'm at a stage where I would love to begin W2W road racing, but there are many factors that make it an impossibility at this time. I'm looking for a little more than a lapping day though. Coming from SoCal I was very surprised to see that with all of the orgs, and great tracks in the Pacific NW there's a lack of Time Trials.

In SoCal the SCCA had 100s of reasons why it's impossible to run TT events. Apparently NASA and Redline didn't get the memo. As a result SoCal NASA pulled in a whole segment of enthusiasts that the SCCA was ignoring. Some of those enthusiast made the leap from TT to w2w racing. They would have never jumped straight into racing with the SCCA.

I was doing track days with Redline back in 2003 when they were really small. They saw the need for more TT events and went with it, now they're doing them all over the country. If it was so impossible they wouldn't be doing it.

It seems that every time someone brings up something like this there's a million reasons why it can't be done. I think that there's a market that this area is being ignored. At some point NASA, Redline, or some other org will move into the area and fill this gap.

Hopefully one of the clubs will start putting on some TTs.
 
Amen brotha! I couldn't agree with you more.

Check out NWR-SCCA.org for TT events. They may put on a couple more before the season is over.... but they are at Bremerton AND dealing with NWR sucks (sorry I've been masking my contempt for sometime).


PS. NASA for all their downsides -- run drivers training, time trials, and W2W all in the same day... why can't we find insurance coverage that will accept this format for us.
 
TTs that are well attended take more time because the cars are filtered on and off the track other than their open practice/qualifying sessions, and so, can take longer. Especially the 're-runs'.


This is a dead wrong statement. The official "race session" for TT is done exactly the same as the the practice/qualify. All cars in the group go out together for the full 20-30min session. Old SOLO1 used the 1 car on the track at a time format, the current SCCA TT format is different.

Not trying to be an a$$ -- I just want to nip mis-information in the bud.

Again, I would push for TT to be on drivers training days, not onto race (Saturday/Sunday) days.

Thank you for the insurance information. You nailed my point on the head. If we (Conference) want to incorporate TT we can, it's just about getting the details and logistics sorted out.
 
Dead? A bit harsh, but I'm okay with the correction, as it has been a very long time since I worked one (NWR). And at the Mazda GP last year they had that Time Attack thing that went on...and on...and on. So I guess, the thing that stands out in my memory is how boring it was for the casual observer (i.e. workers, and I'm not alone in that observation). You know, those with no particular stake in the outcome.

So if someone was to set up some rules to make the event sanctionable, I think it would be good to remember to put in a section that mandates that the drivers rotate out to flag stations for their 'off' session, or a morning run classes/afternoon run classes rotation to be considered for year-end championship points, like the SCCA SOLO II operations.

I agree on the spectating and working point of view. It is hard to tell who is winning, nothing exciting in the corners, etc. But as a way to bring more participants to racing it would be great.

I think that is a fantastic idea to rotate drivers out to flag stations. Maybe the way you work it is, come out one weekend and work. Get a "permission slip" signed off that allows you to enter the next TT event.. or something like that.
 
Hi all. I read the recent announcement of the IRDC's marketing meeting on Feb 23 to bring more people into our road racing hobby.

NASA has had much success with its Time Trial/HPDE 4 run group and many of its race drivers came from that group.

Back to the point of the thread which is, to GROW the ranks of ICSCC road racing competition drivers. NASA, Redline and SCCA seem to have very successful TT's and SOLO events and, perhaps 'some' road racers are developed from these programs.

However, the Northwest region SCCA does have a very successful Time Trials and SOLO program yet, their ranks of road racing drivers has continued to shrink! Some people stick their toes in the competition waters through these programs but I'm guessing very few make the transition to full road racing.

From my perspective, IF ICSCC elects to add this form of motor sports to the sanctioning bodies repertoire, it shoud be a stand-alone, long term NEW program. Simply adding the format to existing (already tightly scheduled) weekend formats would have to diminish in some way an already excellent program.

Look at ICSCC's driver training program. 14 or 15 times a year the club is putting 20 to 30 plus 'drivers' through this training. Yet, we do NOT see the ranks of race drivers growing at 200 to 300 a year. In fact, this very successful process is able to hold our race entry's at about even year-to-year.

HOW TO PROMOTE CLUB RACING.. and 'grow' the ranks is a different question.

And it's a long answer better discussed in 'the meeting' which I wasn't even aware of at the time it was held :confused:
 
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Did you read my earlier posts? I said several times that a TT program should not be added to an already tight race weekend schedule.

You are also incorrect about the number of drivers that have crossed over from TT to race. At least 10 to 15 have crossed over in the last 3 or 4 years.

Why has NWR SCCA road racing program shrunk then?.... Because the TT drivers are coming to Conference. Scott Norton, Bill Mann, and I are just the 3 most recent.

There are also 2 or 3 more drivers that have considered making the switch.

Long term for Conference to be successful it has to adapt to what the customers want. Which it has done in the past very well (the rules change procedure and adding classes procedure testifies to that). But with the recent popularity of TT (Redline TA, etc), we have to be more flexible to different types of competitive driving.
 
the thing that stands out in my memory is how boring it was for the casual observer (i.e. workers, and I'm not alone in that observation). You know, those with no particular stake in the outcome

We wouldn't want to chase away the grandstands full of casual observers at these events. :rolleyes:

In reality it should "look" no different than an "advanced" or whatever top level HPDE. The TT cars will be timed and scored.
 
We wouldn't want to chase away the grandstands full of casual observers at these events. :rolleyes:

In reality it should "look" no different than an "advanced" or whatever top level HPDE. The TT cars will be timed and scored.

No, but there is something to be said about the entertainment level of TT vs W2W. I agree with Ken on that.

I think that is why the have a tiered elimination style competition in TA.
 
The BMW Club has been very succesful moving drivers from BMW Club HPDEs right to the ICSCC Novice program over the past 5 or so years. The growth of PRO3 is the proof.

I'd run TT primarily to satisfy the needs of those that want that experience, with any movement to ICSCC racing as a side benefit. I'm sure all of the current volunteers are tapped out for time, so someone new would have to start, run and foster any TT type program.
 
Do you suppose that the DT folks will get the same 'bang for the buck' sharing the available daily track time, or would a two day format (including those kinds of expenses) be necessary for all driving entities to be satisfied?

I know that the racers are very sensitive to the on-track number of seconds they get per $. DT'ers should be no different, and TT'ers will most likely require, per the rule set, a minimum amount of time for pract/qual/timed sessions.

No, I think if you start talking 2 day events then the whole things get shot down pretty quickly.

Taking a stab at what a schedule would like at a DT would be the first step. My guess and gut feel, from participating in a few track days with IRDC and CSCC, is that there is time... obviously the schedule would be tightened up and reorganized. But there's no reason not to try.

And it would be our rule set, so we can write it however we want. If we want to guarantee TT'ers a minimum we can... or we don't have to.
 
I'd run TT primarily to satisfy the needs of those that want that experience, with any movement to ICSCC racing as a side benefit. I'm sure all of the current volunteers are tapped out for time, so someone new would have to start, run and foster any TT type program.

I agree on volunteers being tapped for time. A work-to-drive rotation would somehow have to be set up I think.
 
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