Window Rule Question?

At PIR last weekend I noticed the white Porsche cup car, #1, had driver's and passenger side plexiglass windows up, (and actually bolted in from what I saw when he opened his driver's door next to me). I don't think I've ever seen windows up in an ICSCC race, I thought there was a rule against it. EC 1108 Q. Is there an exemption for some reason?

Sgt.,

What you are thinking of is probably C.R. 1108 Q and I quote: "Closed cars shall run with both door windows fully open."

It seems clear enough, but as of late, its hard to tell.

Paul Whitworth

Yep, that's the one. I think it's meant as a safety rule but it does give an aerodynamic advantage if the windows are up and no one else has theirs up. In this particular case it doesn't matter to me since that car is not in my class, (but in my run Group); I'm just trying to understand the rule and if there is an exemption for certain classes.

Hmmm, back in the day, if a turn worker saw that is was called in to race control and the driver would be black flagged to get the window down. Obviously the turn workers were not paying attention

Gator,

I noticed for the first time during the weekend the lexan windows up (actually they are attached with screws) when the car went over the scales after the Group 4 race which was the last race of the weekend.

This was a violation of our rule, but since GT1 is governed by SCCA rules I wanted to verify that SCCA does not allow windows up for Porsche Cup cars in GT because if they did we would have a conflict.

SCCA does require all GT cars to have the windows down/removed from GT, however SCCA also has a Porsche Cup Class which allows the car to keep the windows in. Richard's question about the turn workers not calling in the windows up is valid, but with most of the workers also attending SCCA races they are used to seeing the car out on the track with the windows up and probably didn't question it.

If the car shows up again at an ICSCC Championship race, the windows will be removed before it is allowed on track.

FYI - It is great to see drivers paying attention to the rules, in the future if you see a rule violation like that, please feel free to point it out to one of the Stewards so we can get it corrected.

Dan Heinrich
Asst Race Steward

Dan, Thanks for the explanation. Since I'd never seen the car before I thought there might be a conflict with another rule set, which apparently there is, and didn't know if an exception had been made.

Gator,

An exception was made. CR 1108 applies to every car no matter what sanctioning body they run it, what class they run in and even if the cow jumps over the moon. There is a fundamental flaw in Conference accepting the Annual Techs of other bodies because they can allow levels of preparation that is not allowed in Conference. But everybody gets awed by the "Big Professionals" with their multi-million dollar cars.

We are always getting slammed because they claim (and falsely I might add) that the insurance companies are screaming "Liability! Liability! but someone else gets a pass because they have the gold and the golden rules says that he who has the gold, makes the rules.

Hey Dan one question about the window rule. The Porsche Super Cup Cars have the same window installed as the regular Cup Car with one exception. The Super Cup car has an access door built into the window for turn workers to access the inner door handle (fire extinguishers on Cup Cars are accessible from the outside of the car) If the car had these windows installed in it then in theory the car should be legal?? From a safety aspect the inside of the car is accessible from the outside (reaching through the door cut into the window) The FIA has signed off on these windows.

Thoughts?

Jon Bonforte

There are some classes like GTS (nasa and others) which allow side window if certain conditions are met: IIRC they are
1. Made of non shattering material (lexan etc)
2. Are easily and instantly removable
3. Remove function works both from inside and outside
4. Are clearly labeled for function

Sprint cup and nationwide cars have lexan windows in a channel and use "Hartwell" style panel latches that have a pull cord on the inside and 2 large press buttons (typically bright orange) on the outside, my point being that there are ways to meet the above criteria. How "easily" can you remove something is maybe a bit nebulous.

In the event of a fire, I want to be out of the car ASAFP and a stuck window due to a warped frame may not be worth the extra precious seconds.

Not sure why the cup cars and Ferrari challenge cars get a "buy" but I don't believe they are removable without some steps. My BMW 2002 GT3 car has windows mit Hartwell latches mostly for storage and keeping pesky cats out from using the car as an outhouse , but if I ever get the nerve to try and run with them you bet I will have a discussion with the safety team and get the permission first.

NB** just looked up the GTS rules for reference and they define instantly as less than 2 seconds without tools.

Jon,

Rule 1108 Q is extremely specific. Closed cars shall run with both windows fully open.

Our current rule does not give a driver the option to run this type of window, even though they are probably just as safe as having the windows fully open. However, how do you address the issue of a competitive advantage with this style of window?

One good thing about this discussion, it's rule change time!

What about closed cockpit sport racers? Seems the windows need to come out of those as well.

R

Turfer said:

What about closed cockpit sport racers? Seems the windows need to come out of those as well.R

Click to expand...

There are only two maybe three that typically run in ICSCC events (Diasio, and the one from Canada). NO LeMans prototypes

And I would agree with you. they should have no side windows or, quick removal type lexan.

Hey Rick,

Being an ex Steward, would you consider a closed cockpit sports racer to be a closed car, or are sports racers different? And are they windows or just part of the cockpit?

Different Rick than the one you asked, but I would swear we addressed this at some point in the past - perhaps for an enduro? Can't find anything from my primitive search routine though.

In my hazy recollection it seems we based a decision on the Porsches in question being an FIA homologated model with windows that were a structural part of the door and perhaps could not actually be operated without the window being removed?

Anyone remember something like that? There is an outside chance the discussion was in relation to a different event such as a track day or the 25 Hour of Thunderhill. Can't remember.

In reference to the Sport Racer question - closed is closed. I brought that very example up in the IRDC meeting last night across the table from the owner of said Diasio. If the reason side windows need to be open pertains to the safety aspect of being able to easily reach the occupant the class of the car really has no bearing. If it is about competitive advantage, can we conclusively say there is an advantage and determine how much? How does this affect the IMSA Buick that shows up to race with us that I drool over?

A couple of things to think about -

If someone wants to race a Subaru SVX it has an opening portion smaller than it's actual window area - is that ok?

http://momentcar.com/images/subaru-svx-1997-2.jpg

If that is ok then where do you stop - here?

http://www.homeracingworld.com/S1window.jpg

I know that in my car at speed surprisingly little air comes in my windows. It is already hotter and occasionally "fumier" than I would like - if I put quick removable lexan windows in it we could probably use it to cook pizza during a sprint race which we could serve at our worker appreciation get-together afterward!

rick_bostrom said:

....I know that in my car at speed surprisingly little air comes in my windows....!

Click to expand...

Rick,

How much air do you guess the window nets are blocking from coming in?? If it's a lot, you guys with nets may be getting close to the same aero effect as the windows guys do.

Run 10 laps with the nets and ten laps without the nets with a 'cool down' time in between. Measure the temp in the middle of the cockpit.

Actually the Conference Rule Book does not specifically define what a closed car is. There are specific rules that define what a Sports Racer is and excludes Production Based cars no matter how extensively modified. So if a Sports Racer with a closed top has to compete under Closed Wheel car rules, that would imply that closed top Sports Racers can compete outside of groups 3 and 6? And if they could, then open Sports Racers should as well, since Convertible Closed Wheel cars are allowed to use Open Sports Racer front hoop/rear hoop roll cage construction. Just Kidding.

In the 2015 ICSCC Rule Book these FIA Articles apply to sports racers:

Application of FIA Appendix C to ICSCC Sports Racing Cars

Page 112
Art. 207, altered as follows:
Closed cars shall be equipped with at least one rigid door affording the driver easy access to the
driving position.

Page 113
Art.211:
Closed cars: Bodies of closed cars must correspond at least to all the conditions indicated
above for open cars and must be established in such a way that they insure adequate and safe
visibility for the driver.
During races either by means of open windows or by a special apparatus, a sufficient draft must
exist to prevent gases from accumulating inside the car.

There is no specific mention of windows down for safety. Only the need for an opening door, safe visibility, and an opening for ventilation. Though they are FIA rules, and might seemingly be a conflict as Dan mentions per SCCA conflicts being over-ridden by Conference Production Car Rules, Articles 207 and 211 "altered as follows" are ICSCC sanctioned.

So Closed Top Sports Racers have a Conference Approved Provision to run with closed windows, with the option of venting in the windows if the driver so chooses.

Andre

"how do you address the issue of a competitive advantage with this style of window?"

I am moving to SPU and I don't think anybody can argue a "competitive advantage" in any of the SP classes. Sorry if I am wrong on the rules on this one, I have been sitting on the sidelines for a while and don't know the rule book like the back of my hand like I use to.

Rick does bring up a very good point...

Closed top cars running in groups other then 3 and 6 seem to generally fall under the 'PRODUCTION' rules of the FIA. Meaning some minimum number (used to be 600) had to be built and sold to the public before they could be homologated for competition. Sports Racers are 'normally' limited production cars falling well under the 600 mentioned in the last sentence.

There is NO QUESTION left that closed top cars with closed windows have an aero advantage. That's been well documented since the day Shelby had Brock design the Daytona Coupe. The Cobras were toping out at about 160 MPH on the Mulsanne Straight while the closed Ferraris were reaching over 180 MPH. Thus the Daytona Coupe.

Where's the rule that says that we need to get a driver out of a closed car when it's on it's lid and the doors are jammed?*

*-Rhetorical question

"2015 ICSCC Competition Regulations

SECTION 11
-
TECHNICAL and SAFETY INSPECTIONS"

It doesn't matter where else the car races. And performance differences are irrelevant to the original question. Changing 1101.A. "A full and complete technical and safety inspection may (WILL) be performed on each vehicle annually.", and "SCCA
/CACC annual inspections will (NOT) be accepted."

Forcing an annual inspection of any car that expects to participate at the event if they do not have an ICSCC annual done when made available by the local clubs.

I'm not suggesting over-burdening Tech, but I don't know that there would be all that many cars each event to qualify.

However, defining the closed wheel vs sports racer vs open wheel/purpose built definitions... Now there is something that has baffled this conference for decades.

Now is a good time to dissect the 'terms', open and closed, production and purpose built type questions for next year too.

I just wanna get the driver out of the car without cutting big holes in it.

Because I will cut big holes in it. While we are waiting for more tools to cut bigger holes in it if necessary.

Thank you for your consideration.

..as far as I am concerned, if I was in a closed top car on it's lid and the Safety Crew needed to rip the door off to get me out, RIP AWAY!!!!!!!